Class discrimination: Isn't this obvious?
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25-02-2013, 03:15 AM
RE: Class discrimination: Isn't this obvious?
(22-02-2013 08:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Most of you know I work in FA. I help dozens of students a day... trying to get them money for school.

I will tell you this - it's frustrating.

It's frustrating that people who basically live off the government receive so much money from Pell and then can receive federal loan refunds. They are basically pocketing the cash with no intent to pay it back. They are career students that hop from school to school getting Pell and refunds.

It's ridiculous. The lower your income; the more money you get.

Now, I also see students on the other end. Student who are contributing members of society... working people... trying to go to school. Yet, they are penalized for how much they make. The more they make; the less Pell they get.

This is just ludicrous. It's out-and-out class discrimination. All undergraduate students should be eligible for the same amount of Pell regardless of income. It's a horribly imbalanced and corrupt system that encourages laziness and being given handouts.

Thoughts?
Wow....the Big, Bad Poor People are so dangerous to society. They are also a convenient target of scorn for they do not have the resources to fight back. But...what about the Rich Bankers or Industrialists who are destroying this country, can they be a target of scorn?

As Matt Taibbi Says:

But actual rich people can’t ever be the target. It’s a classic peasant
mentality: going into fits of groveling and bowing whenever the master’s
carriage rides by, then fuming against the Turks in Crimea or the Jews
in the Pale or whoever after spending fifteen hard hours in the fields.
You know you’re a peasant when you worship the very people who are right
now, this minute, conning you and taking your shit. Whatever the master
does, you’re on board. When you get frisky, he sticks a big cross in
the middle of your village, and you spend the rest of your life praying
to it with big googly eyes. Or he puts out newspapers full of innuendo
about this or that faraway group and you immediately salute and rush off
to join the hate squad. A good peasant is loyal, simpleminded, and full
of misdirected anger. And that’s what we’ve got now, a lot of
misdirected anger searching around for a non-target to mis-punish… can’t
be mad at AIG, can’t be mad at Citi or Goldman Sachs. The real villains
have to be the anti-AIG protesters! After all, those people earned those
bonuses! If ever there was a textbook case of peasant thinking, it’s
struggling middle-class Americans burned up in defense of
taxpayer-funded bonuses to millionaires. It’s really weird stuff. And
bound to get weirder, I imagine, as this crisis gets worse and more
complicated.
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25-02-2013, 04:58 AM
RE: Class discrimination: Isn't this obvious?
In the UK when I go to school it is "free" (payed for by tax)
When I leave school and then do two years at college it is "free"
Why is it if I want further education at University then I have to pay for it... so I beg to ask the question "Why the cut off point?"

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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25-02-2013, 09:26 AM
RE: Class discrimination: Isn't this obvious?
bemore: Because university is expensive, unfortunately. University education used to be free in Australia. By introducing the HECS loan scheme in 1989 the government was able to massively increase university places, and that's good for everyone in society. Good enough to warrant a small debt that you never have to service unless you become a mid to high income earner.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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25-02-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: Class discrimination: Isn't this obvious?
"Well, the Democrats, of course--they invented class warfare. Some 'compassionate conservatives' contributed."

No, they didn't. Class warfare was commonplace in ancient Rome. And to be sure, the welfare state created in Rome was as key an ingredient in Rome's fall as it is in the fall of modern nation states. We can see the detrimental affects of socialism in Detroit and if we don't stop this nonsense, every city in the US will be Detroit... or Cleveland.

"I don't care how poor someone is, there should be no free ride for
anyone. Why should a middle class student graduate with the typical
$20k-$30k in loans while the lower class student has no loans to pay
back at all?"


I don't profess to know who should and shouldn't get a free ride. I do know that I should pay my way because I have the money and I know that if another can't pay his way, I'm inclined to help. But I know for sure, guns should never be pointed at people in order to pay someone's way.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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25-02-2013, 01:53 PM
RE: Class discrimination: Isn't this obvious?
(25-02-2013 03:04 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Well, the Democrats, of course--they invented class warfare. Some 'compassionate conservatives' contributed.

When the government makes the price of something zero, we will see shortages and skyrocketing costs to produce that good. It's no surprise to see college costs soar as student financial aid is increased. At least with loans that are paid back, there is some sense of cost controlling how much the consumer (the student) spends. Why should there be any limit if it's someone else's money they are spending and never have to pay back?

I don't care how poor someone is, there should be no free ride for anyone. Why should a middle class student graduate with the typical $20k-$30k in loans while the lower class student has no loans to pay back at all?

Partisanship aside, Obama was on the right track when he proposed requiring colleges and universities to publish data on student graduation rates, indebtedness, default rates, and economic performance of college graduates. Maybe if colleges started actually giving a shit about the well being of the students they matriculate (even if forced to), they will start trying to graduate students in useful careers and at a price that doesn't bury their graduates financially.

Come on. You kidding, right?

The money is available across the board, in terms of both income brackets and private versus public sector. There are people-- as families, individuals, corporations, organizations, etc.-- all throwing out money, left and right, to pile on top of the money available for students to go to school on. It's just in the most inefficient, ineffective way possible. Plus, we are talking about the costs of a thing people aren't just randomly going to give up on because it costs to much and/or it is junk.

Also, when you are talking the difference between a family with around $30,000 a year being eligible for some aid based on need, strictly, compared to a family with around $80,000 a year just not being eligible for some aid, but still have access to merit-based aid and just general money that doesn't base on income, it's not total absurdity to try and help poor families out. That hypothetical example was a $50,000 a year gap, it definitely could be less in some cases, but it could also be more, and that doesn't take into account the fact that making more money will likely mean you have access to better high schools, in better communities, with better teachers and guidance, better curriculum, more options and activities, etc., all of which will help you out toward applications and the real serious full-ride, financial assistance to the really high quality universities.

The problem is, we do the most bullshit, inefficient, dumb shit, a country could possibly do, and that goes toward every aspect of society, not just in terms of education.

The problem is that we have pussy, wanna-be socialist, elitist snoobs on one side, and out-of-touch, douchebag, evil banker, crony capitalists on the other, and they come together and compromise giving us the worst of pseudo-socialism, combined with the worst of capitalism (or best, depending on your position).

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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25-02-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: Class discrimination: Isn't this obvious?
(25-02-2013 11:06 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  We can see the detrimental affects of socialism in Detroit and if we don't stop this nonsense, every city in the US will be Detroit... or Cleveland.

I think you are confusing socialism, with racism.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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