Classroom Discussion
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10-09-2016, 04:17 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
(10-09-2016 01:40 PM)Jokurix Wrote:  He's not really claiming it, he's asking me the question.

"Why couldnt the energy you say made the universe through the Big Bang be what I call God?"

Because it's just energy. It dosn't have any thought process. It's just reacting the way things like that do.

Most of the time when people talk about gods it has some sort of mind. These things plan, manipulate or control things. They have emotions projected from them in someone. Many of the polytheist gods usually demonstrate one type. Like Aphrodite the Greek Goddess of Love. Or Ra the Egyptian Son god. The filled a roll, or carred out a job that make exsitance move. Monotheistic gods are often projected as the epitome of man. It's the smartest, it the strongest, it's the most loving it's the most cruel.

These concepts don't apply to a fire cracker. An atom doesn't plan out it's day. A proton doesn't think about how it's going to take care of humans. Hydergine doesn't give two shits about planets or it's acupents. They are completely and utterly devoid of any emotion or thought.

I am not going to worship the beginning of all things. I'm not going to worry if it thinks I shouldn't eat fish during the month of september or if I masturbate in the privacy of my own home. It dosn't care not because it wants to but because it dosn't have those property's. It doesn't offer any salvation or promises to move you to another universe. Its simply an event that happened.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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10-09-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
(10-09-2016 03:38 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In the universe we observe an expansion event in which everything appears to be moving away from a central point. We can calculate the position of everything going back in time, up to a certain point.

Ummm, no.

The universe is expanding from all points, not one.
It is the very fabric of space that is expanding.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-09-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
(10-09-2016 05:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-09-2016 03:38 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In the universe we observe an expansion event in which everything appears to be moving away from a central point. We can calculate the position of everything going back in time, up to a certain point.

Ummm, no.

The universe is expanding from all points, not one.
It is the very fabric of space that is expanding.

I know. That's why I used the word appears.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-09-2016, 06:54 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
(10-09-2016 11:37 AM)Jokurix Wrote:  So, it happens that I'm the only atheist in my classroom, we're like 20 and it'd be about 9 christians, 9 muslims, 1 agnostic and 1 atheist, this last one being me.

In my country's school program there's this religion subject, at least for catholic high schools (I'm in one).

So along with the subject presentation, my christian religion teacher just went ahead and asked: Are there any atheists? To which I raised my hand with confidence.

To this, he replied: You know, I don't think someone can really be an atheist. What is your source? (meaning my original source of life, like if I went back from my mom, then her parents, and blablabla).

To this I answered a classic example, the Big Bang. That that's how it started for our universe. So to continue with his comment "I don't think someone can really be an atheist" he said, but what if that energy (referring to the Big Bang's energy or whatever) is the same thing I call God, since God is essentially a creator?

Basically he's saying the energy that made the Big Bang could be what he calls God. To this I was going to answer that you can call God whatever you want, but that monotheist religions God is not just a creator, but also comes with other illogical problems like omnipresence and stuff.

Question is, what else can I say to answer what he said about "the energy of the Big Bang (or any scientific theory of the creation of the universe) being God"?

On the question of what is your ultimate source, say existence. On the other, tell him anyone can propose a what if scenario but that he does not get to manufacture possibilities out of his imagination and call them real.

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The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-09-2016, 07:13 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
I'd respond with a question. "Can i get a different teacher?"
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11-09-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
I was fairly lucky back in high school. No religious people at all and the teachers were all atheists. I mean, there was still religious education as required by the curriculum but nobody took it seriously.
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11-09-2016, 07:58 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
G'day mate, and welcome to the forum. Smile


(10-09-2016 11:37 AM)Jokurix Wrote:  In my country's school program there's this religion subject, at least for catholic high schools (I'm in one).

This is inevitably an issue for atheists attending Catholic schools here in Australia too. Unfortunately, the answer is that there is no answer. It's ultimately pointless having any sort of religious debate with a Catholic teacher simply because you'll always lose, and end up lost for words. At the moment, in secular government schools in Victoria (where I live) religious instruction has been legally prohibited. This prohibition—of course—doesn't apply to religion-based private schools.

I guess one very extreme option is to ask your parents to let you enroll at a secular high school—as you're finding the surreptitious religious indoctrination too overwhelming to the point of interfering with your studies. Can I ask if your parent(s) are theists?

Quote:So along with the subject presentation, my christian religion teacher just went ahead and asked: Are there any atheists? To which I raised my hand with confidence. To this, he replied: You know, I don't think someone can really be an atheist. What is your source?

Totally inappropriate—personally demeaning, overbearing, immaterial, insulting, and unnecessarily confrontational. The fact that despite there being other non-Catholics in the class (Muslims) he singled you out is indicative of the fear and/or disdain that theists have for atheists. Even as a Catholic, he's showing a grudging respect for other religion's gods—in this case Allah—as he didn't try to give them the third degree.

Quote:So to continue with his comment "I don't think someone can really be an atheist" he said, but what if that energy (referring to the Big Bang's energy or whatever) is the same thing I call God, since God is essentially a creator?

This is the classic theist argument: because = God. End of story.

Quote:Question is, what else can I say to answer what he said about "the energy of the Big Bang (or any scientific theory of the creation of the universe) being God"?

I'd suggest backing off, and letting him have his stupid fucking opinion about atheists. You'll never get anywhere by arguing the toss with these sorts of scientific illiterates. I'm glad you put your hand up as an atheist though—you did the right thing, even if it attracted scorn initially. Hang in there mate.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-09-2016, 08:11 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
I wonder how many of the theists in there diragreed with his description of god. I'm guessing most of them. Maybe that planted the seed of doubt in their own flavor of sky daddy.
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11-09-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
At work.

Just a thought Jokurix but why not suggest that instead of your teacher picking on children, they join up here and come play with some adults.

Angel
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11-09-2016, 11:38 PM
RE: Classroom Discussion
(11-09-2016 07:58 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:So along with the subject presentation, my christian religion teacher just went ahead and asked: Are there any atheists? To which I raised my hand with confidence. To this, he replied: You know, I don't think someone can really be an atheist. What is your source?

Totally inappropriate—personally demeaning, overbearing, immaterial, insulting, and unnecessarily confrontational. The fact that despite there being other non-Catholics in the class (Muslims) he singled you out is indicative of the fear and/or disdain that theists have for atheists. Even as a Catholic, he's showing a grudging respect for other religion's gods—in this case Allah—as he didn't try to give them the third degree.

ALL OF THIS.

Brace yourself for a heapload of abuse this term. You have the misfortune of being targeted for abuse by someone with age, experience, positional authority, and control over your educational grades and future. If this is the first day or week -- and I'm guessing it is, given how broad the topic -- the early start and the fact that he sought out an atheist on his initiative rather than reacted to perceiving one are bad signs. Really, really, really bad signs. (Reaction would still have been bad, but actively seeking is much worse.)

It's possible that his intentions were benign. He definitely crossed the line picking on you in front of your peers like that, but everyone's got off days and this might not be indicative of what the rest of your time with him's going to be like.

Hope for the best... that this was just someone who likes to debate, and in his eagerness he came after you harder than he should have.

But prepare for the worst.... that this is someone who likes to abuse.

Abusers don't care about good arguments. If anything, that will just redouble the abuse. Abusers care about the sense of exerting uncontested control. Any act of defiance is just more abuse that needs to be exerted to bring it under control. Once control is established, more abuse is required to test and confirm the totality of control.

The best weapon at your disposal here is documentation. Are you allowed to record class lectures? Do so. If not, be prepared to start doing so if things get a lot worse. At that point, the trouble you'll get into for recording will be the lesser of evils. Either way, keep a diary, noting down every time he crosses the line. Dates, times, manner, subject, so on. It should be as easy as keeping notes. (Make it part of your notes, since you're taking them anyway.) Talk with your classmates about any incidents like this after class. You don't have to gripe about it, just have a conversation about what they thought about it, so on. That will help fix it in their memory as well and make them witnesses. Documentation, especially if other students remember the incidents, can go a long way in getting an abusive teacher fired... or in embarrassing a recalcitrant institution into firing him... or in warning away lots of other people who might be suckered into signing up for the institution in the first place if they DON'T fire him. It's also useful in the event he sabotages your grades on purpose or if anything lands in civil or criminal court.

Never, under any circumstances, should you allow yourself to be alone with him. A domineering personality taking a special interest in you from the first day is a red flag. Even with that, the odds of him being a sexual molester are low, albeit higher than otherwise. But don't take the risk.

Now that I've possibly scared you halfway to death...

Most likely scenario, he's aggressive and might grade you a little more harshly. Maybe he views this as benign, as pushing you and challenging your ideas. Maybe he views it like squashing a bug. Either way, he's crossing a line. It's abuse, but it's low-key, survivable abuse. Your options are limited because his low-key abuse isn't bad enough to be actionable. Your best bet is to just tough it out and try to get through all right.

Second most likely scenario, nearly tied with the first, he's looking to engage people with opinions contrary to his. It's possible that his "don't believe anyone can be an atheist" speech is part of his boilerplate lecture whether anyone's an atheist or not. If so, this will become obvious in the weeks to come as he does similar things with other students who disagree with him in other ways. This will mean you can relax a bit, as you aren't a special target of his.

Third most likely scenario, a significant ways behind the other two, he's outright psychologically abusive. Like, abusive parents who end up getting their kids taken away from them level of abusive. He'll make you his target at every opportunity, looking to demean you and your atheism in front of your peers at every turn. He'll look to turn your classmates against you, he'll make you his pet project, and he'll grind your grade into dust and force you to repeat his class if need be. Maybe he's trying to convert you, or maybe just break you. In this case, your diary and (possibly) recordings become a weapon you need to challenge a bad grade... or to go public.

Physical abuse is by far the least likely scenario. But still, safeguard against it. Don't ever be alone with him.

Please remember that this COULD have been just a bad start and that he might be an all-right guy and you can get along just fine with him. Take precautions, but hold onto hope that it's an overabundance of caution and that you won't need them.
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