Climate Change - General Discussion
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18-03-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(18-03-2017 01:54 PM)bemore Wrote:  Personally, I think that whilst there is currently no profit to be made from saving the planet, Climate Change will just increase and get worse to the point of no return.

Yes, that's why many people support a carbon tax, to incentivize moving to cleaner sources of energy.

https://www.carbontax.org/whats-a-carbon-tax/

Since Republicans like free market solutions, this is the kind of policy they should support -- if they acknowledged that climate change is caused by people at all.
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18-03-2017, 04:39 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 05:29 PM by Kaneda.)
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
How are you guys bringing this subject up with the people in your own lives? It seems like the worst kind of topic to make taboo, yet it almost never gets any traction with the people I meet in person.

"Men willingly believe what they wish." -Julius Caesar
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18-03-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(18-03-2017 02:33 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 01:54 PM)bemore Wrote:  Personally, I think that whilst there is currently no profit to be made from saving the planet, Climate Change will just increase and get worse to the point of no return.

Yes, that's why many people support a carbon tax, to incentivize moving to cleaner sources of energy.

https://www.carbontax.org/whats-a-carbon-tax/

Since Republicans like free market solutions, this is the kind of policy they should support -- if they acknowledged that climate change is caused by people at all.

The only problem I have with carbon taxing is I don't think the corporations will accept the loss of revenue and will pass the cost down to the consumers or will reduce funding/expenditure in other areas.

The solutions put forward on the link you provided don't really excite me either on what to do with the revenue.

Whilst I agree something should be done to incentivise green alternatives and to disrupt large carbon emissions, I think carbon taxing needs a lot more discussion.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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18-03-2017, 05:28 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(18-03-2017 04:39 PM)Kaneda Wrote:  How are you guys bringing this subject to live with the people in your own lives? It seems like the worst kind of subject to keep tabbo, yet it almost never gets discussed at any length with the people I meet in person.

Since I am surrounded by my wife's family and their friends, who are almost all Republicans and anything but intellectuals, I don't bring it up. However, I have given a few other more intelligent friends and relatives copies of Dire Predictions for Xmas gifts.

I am also considering writing a summary of the main points from all the books on climate change I've been reading, and emailing out copies. That will probably take me most of a year to finish.

Undecided
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18-03-2017, 08:20 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(18-03-2017 04:39 PM)Kaneda Wrote:  How are you guys bringing this subject up with the people in your own lives? It seems like the worst kind of topic to make taboo, yet it almost never gets any traction with the people I meet in person.

In my own life, I have to approach it the same way I approach religion. They believe things about our climate that are demonstrably false or they believe things without any evidence. They make assertions about climate and then try to quote science deniers and their made up, cherry picked data from one erroneous data set out of 1000 other data sets that show how the climate is changing.

I think what you really have to do is focus on a few points no matter what they say.

1. Explain how CO2 interacts with infrared radiation trying to leave the planet.
2. Explain the sources of CO2 across the planet and the amounts those sources are pumping into the atmosphere.

Everything else is moot.

If that doesn't work, try an analogy.
The land their house sits on was once covered by plants, bushes & probably trees. If we look back in time at that land, we see trees sprouting, living a full life and dying. This cycle had repeated for hundreds of thousands of years and every so often there is a fire that kills those trees. These are natural cycles.

Currently someone is in your house adding a chemical, gasoline, that will produce an unnatural warming of your house. Might I add a very unexpected warming, because every other natural factor is not the cause.

Look at the land over hundreds of thousands of years and then a house was built (industrial revolution)
And now we are detecting a man pouring gasoline all over the interior of the house.

And you are ignoring that.
What's worse, is that you are making up excuses so that it can continue.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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18-03-2017, 09:48 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 10:10 PM by Kaneda.)
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
Personally, it's not the deniers that I get really hung up about. I get cold feet with people on the fence with stakes in the future who, deep down, know the problem is real but turn a blind eye because the barriers seem too insurmountable, the and the implications too horrible to comprehend. I simply don't know how to handle pointing out the albatross in the room to people who haven't explored the subject for themselves; there's really no right way to talk with someone about how winter may be going extinct, or how half the world might starve in a decade due to global crop failures, or that we might return to medieval life-expectancies if we stay our current course. I mean, I've been immersed in this bad news for a while, and I still get shell-shocked when the subject comes up.

"Men willingly believe what they wish." -Julius Caesar
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19-03-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(18-03-2017 09:48 PM)Kaneda Wrote:  Personally, it's not the deniers that I get really hung up about. I get cold feet with people on the fence with stakes in the future who, deep down, know the problem is real but turn a blind eye because the barriers seem too insurmountable, the and the implications too horrible to comprehend. I simply don't know how to handle pointing out the albatross in the room to people who haven't explored the subject for themselves; there's really no right way to talk with someone about how winter may be going extinct, or how half the world might starve in a decade due to global crop failures, or that we might return to medieval life-expectancies if we stay our current course. I mean, I've been immersed in this bad news for a while, and I still get shell-shocked when the subject comes up.

I feel that way a lot. Not just about climate change. Everything's so goddamn complex - overpopulation, access to education, religion, war, politics... And you know however much nuanced thought you put into it ultimately the mob will shout it down if it affects them even one iota. Concept of a long-term better future crashes into the rocks that are the fact of populist politics. We ARE fucked. I don't see a way out. The only thing that will convince people that something needs to be done urgently is when a massive global catastrophe does happen. And even then, the nature of the catastrophe will determine the nature of the political response. If it's a massive global famine then the response will be not to address root causes, but to come up with some kind of cheap and nasty food aid. If it's a global sea level rise that makes places uninhabitable, fucks the weather and so forth - well, the rich will look out for themselves, conceivably billions will die, and nothing tangible will get done...

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-03-2017, 05:30 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(18-03-2017 09:48 PM)Kaneda Wrote:  Personally, it's not the deniers that I get really hung up about. I get cold feet with people on the fence with stakes in the future who, deep down, know the problem is real but turn a blind eye because the barriers seem too insurmountable, the and the implications too horrible to comprehend.

My personal philosophy, if I can call it that, is to be honest and let the chips fall where they may. Because climate change is largely driven by over-population, there may be little we can do but face the consequences. But I would rather face the facts and at least try to mitigate those consequences than ignore them and do nothing at all. Perhaps more than anything else, the people of the future will judge us by how we dealt with climate change.

Undecided
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19-03-2017, 05:32 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
I'm the same as MD, in the fact that there are so many different factors to take into account, all with their own unique and complex scientific models that I find it almost impossible to wrap my head around the whole subject.

I know very little about the science.

Something that I find interesting though and something that was raised as an arguement when I used to dabble in the realms of conspiracy, which included climate change denial was the causes that led the earths previous change of climate, the cycles of ice ages throughout the last 2.5 million years.

Whilst im not a denier, as one can see the rapid onset of change since the industrial revolution, I wonder what factors are taken into account from the past. Are the hypothetical reasons and modelling of previous ice ages used in todays models? Are there comparisons to the earths orbit around the sun and its incoming solar radiation?

Where do those two factors fit in?

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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19-03-2017, 05:54 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(19-03-2017 05:32 AM)bemore Wrote:  Whilst im not a denier, as one can see the rapid onset of change since the industrial revolution, I wonder what factors are taken into account from the past. Are the hypothetical reasons and modelling of previous ice ages used in todays models? Are there comparisons to the earths orbit around the sun and its incoming solar radiation?

Where do those two factors fit in?

During past changes to the climate, the increase or decrease of carbon dioxide was driven by other factors. They included variations in planetary tilt, distance from the sun, output from the sun, and volcanic activity. Even the positions of the continents effected the climate in the much more distant past. Carbon dioxide increased or decreased with changes in the growth of vegetation as influenced by those other factors, just as we see them vary on a smaller scale because of the seasons now, and became a positive feedback enhancing the effects of such factors.

However, scientists have eliminated all those other possible factors from the present climate change picture. This time the climate change is driven almost entirely by the burning of fossil fuels, as scientists can tell from the isotope of the increased carbon in the atmosphere. (According to what I have read, 90% of current climate change is caused by fossil fuel mining and combustion.) Further, present changes are happening 100 to 200 times faster than natural cycles, at least those not driven by catastrophies like huge meteor impacts.
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