Climate Change - General Discussion
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15-03-2017, 06:35 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(15-03-2017 06:23 AM)Walter Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 12:55 AM)Kaneda Wrote:  Do not call other users trolls, morons, children, or anything else clever you may think of. Personal attacks, whether explicit or implicit, are not permitted.

In general, don't be a jerk. Don't bait people, don't use hate speech, etc. Attack ideas, not users.

You then call me a denier.

Great start.


He's got a point here.

"Denier" does have the connotation of being "wrong" or "less than" those who say the science is absolute......

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15-03-2017, 06:38 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(14-03-2017 06:30 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Add some solar panels to home. Your actions alone aren't going to make much of a difference, but if enough of us make small changes it can.
Solar panels, for all the good intentions, are not the best idea.

It takes a tremendous amount of both energy and non-renewable resources to create and ship solar panels. And the manufacture of them requires the use and disposal of sodium hydroxide and hydrofluoric acid, neither of which you want in your breakfast cereal. Source: How Green Are Those Solar Panels, Really?

As well, solar panels are terribly inefficient, only converting about 14% of energy into electricity.

On top of that, you'll pay higher house insurance premiums (especially fire insurance) and possibly property tax, depending on your jurisdiction.
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15-03-2017, 07:20 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
Solar panels are a specialized solution. They're great for off grid power, where there's sufficient sunlight. They're not a solution to our power needs. Get them more efficient by a factor of 50, and you'll have something...

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15-03-2017, 08:02 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(14-03-2017 11:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  Um so... I have another question: how much sea level rise can we tolerate? I mean... if it rises a few inches... what does that mean in terms of consequences? A few feet? Does that mean island nations drowned? Large areas of uninhabitable swamp in some low lying continents?

How much we can tolerate depends on where you are. Places like Kiribati, the Maldives and Marshall are only about 6 feet above sea level, and some of the latest models are predicting 5 to 6 feet of rise by 2100. If that happens these places will be gone and more than half a million people will have to find somewhere else to live or die.

Low lying coastal cities and threatened now. the 12 inches of sea level rise we have seen in the last 100 years was the difference in the storm surge from hurricane Sandy clearing the sea wall in New York. Places like Miami and Virginia Beaches are already experiencing flooding. They are spend millions on temporary fixes like raising their roads.

Other models say 10 feet by 2100. There are 156 million people in Bagladesh now. Most of them live in low lying coastal areas. 10 feet of sea level rise would make most of that area uninhabitable. 100 million people would be looking for new homes in from that country alone.

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You think the world has a refugee crises now? Some models say a 4 degree C temperature rise will result in a 10 meter sea level rise. That would inundate the homes of nearly a billion people. Where do you think they are going to go?

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15-03-2017, 09:30 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 09:47 AM by Kaneda.)
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(14-03-2017 05:36 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  So what form does your activism take? Why are you especially interested in this topic yourself? What books have you read?

To be honest, I hadn't given this topic much attention until this past Summer. That was when we had a an unusually stifling heat wave going throughout California that was getting all kinds of coverage. So, the subject pursued me gently until I got zealous enough to start looking for answers myself.

Frankly, learning about the extent of the problem has been a punch to the gut. I had known global warming was an ongoing issue we were gradually causing and it was responsible for some extreme weather and ecological conditions, but I had never really been told how dire the situation was. If they had taught us in fifth grade science about anoxic oceans and methane feedbacks and food supply disruptions attributed to human activity, we would probably have a lot more militant environmentalists today than we currently do.

I've been filling my head with this stuff in the past several months by talking to people and reading periodicals. I want to get more engaged in bringing the topic out into the open, but it's a sensitive subject for a lot of people and it would do good to frame the issue, and the outlook, like a rational human being when the time comes. Still, it's not helpful that the body of literature I've read puts the prognosis anywhere between "We can beat this if we can just phase out coal in 30 years," to "GAME-OVER MAN, WE'RE GOING TO SUFFER A CATASTROPHIC PERMIAN-LEVEL EXTINCTION IN ONE DECADE!!!!!!," so I've come on here to try and get some better perspective. I want to know where people think we're going so I can try to set my expectations in line with reality, and learn what we can do to adapt and help others around us in this Brave New World. I'm also open to hear new findings and scientific insights.

Admittedly, I haven't done much in the way of activism thus far. I abstain from red meat and carpool as much as I can. Out of necessity I might soon find I have to do a lot more. In the meantime, I'm open to suggestions about what voluntary actions I/others can take in the name of activism along the way. That's part of what this thread is all about Thumbsup.

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15-03-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(15-03-2017 06:38 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 06:30 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Add some solar panels to home. Your actions alone aren't going to make much of a difference, but if enough of us make small changes it can.
Solar panels, for all the good intentions, are not the best idea.

It takes a tremendous amount of both energy and non-renewable resources to create and ship solar panels. And the manufacture of them requires the use and disposal of sodium hydroxide and hydrofluoric acid, neither of which you want in your breakfast cereal. Source: How Green Are Those Solar Panels, Really?

As well, solar panels are terribly inefficient, only converting about 14% of energy into electricity.

On top of that, you'll pay higher house insurance premiums (especially fire insurance) and possibly property tax, depending on your jurisdiction.

The only thing on my list I haven't personally done is get rid of my 4x4 because I use it to haul a small trailer and occasionally go off road. I did trade my 16 year old V8 Silverado for a V6 Tacoma, but that only bought me a couple of MPGs.

I couldn't tell you how much the windows and insulation reduced my carbon footprint because I had that done when I bought the place we are in now 3 years ago so I have nothing to compare it to, but I can't imagine it hasn't helped.

A few years ago One of the guys I work with bought a pallet of 60 300 watt industrial solar panels off eBay for $5000 and spent another $1000 getting they shipped. He put 24 of them on his house and gave me 6 for helping him put his up. He sold the other 30 for $200 each. He got 7200 watts, and I got 1800 watts of no cost panels.

I used 6 gauge wire wire salvaged from a job to hook it up, spent $250 on an inverter, another $150 on some unistrut and misc hardware for mounting and $50 to get an electrician I know to sign off on my install. Total cost $450 and a bunch of unpaid time.

Over the last 2 years my system is generating an average of about 324 KWH a month. That equates to about $32 a month in savings on our utility bill. The system paid for itself in 14 months. Everything after that is gravy.

I understand that I got a deal, and most people would spend a lot more than I did, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a better than 20% reduction in our household electrical consumption over the 20 year lifespan of my solar panels isn't a net positive for for everybody. Especially considering that a lot of the power consumed around these parts is generated in coal fired plants.

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15-03-2017, 09:57 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 10:20 AM by skyking.)
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
I'm with you, Pappy.
people use the same logic when it comes to electric cars, lamenting the battery maunfacturing pollution and the like. I don't think it compares in any meaningful way to the carbon burned, especially when adding in the carbon cost to move the carbon around.
The big problem from my view is population density. We live out in the sticks and burn fuel to get to work. Ideally, we'd move to town. The direct cost of doing that is prohibitive when we are so close to retirement age.
The electric bikes are probably the coolest thing I've seen lately. if I could use one I would. That's a little tongue in cheek today. Expecting an inch of rain Tongue
Edit:
The 14% solar panel efficiency thing really grates on me. If it were not intercepted and raised to a higher state, It would just add to the general heat. Raising up what we get is the best direction to go, IMO.
Lamenting the pollution in making electric cars and batteries completely ignores the fact that they are a tiny drop in the bucket of manufacturing pollution planet-wide.
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15-03-2017, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 11:04 AM by adey67.)
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(14-03-2017 12:55 AM)Kaneda Wrote:  Lately I've been thinking that, given the amount of interest Anthropogenic Climate Change attracts on this forum, it might be time to give this subject its own dedicated thread. The issue has inspired passionate discussion in the corners of Science and Politics, but is too often brought up in the context of butting-heads with deniers, or simply hits a dead-end before it conversation can build some real momentum.

I brought it up with the admins and talked to a few people who'd be down to see a thread for General Discussion on the subject. I'm aiming for this to be a thread where people can post general observations, talk climate science and future projections, and discuss what thy're doing in the way of activism*. There are a lot of prolific writers here and, if you read this far, you are probably one of them and have some interesting perspective to give. I'd like things to stay engaging and informative; please be civil.


Do not call other users trolls, morons, children, or anything else clever you may think of. Personal attacks, whether explicit or implicit, are not permitted.

In general, don't be a jerk. Don't bait people, don't use hate speech, etc. Attack ideas, not users.





That's all I have to say. Hopefully there is enough public interest for the thread to sustain itself. I look forward to seeing what directions this subject takes.

*To be clear, activism might mean anything from being a good steward of the Earth's resources, to lobbying your representatives, to prepping and adapting to the myriad challenges coming forth in this century. Every bit counts.

Edit: I'm aware we're already 'locked in' for a large amount of damage that is mostly outside our control, and it would probably be good to approach the thread with that in mind. Nonetheless, being a good steward of your environment has psychological benefits and I'd highly encourage it anyway. No need to make the problem worse.

Dude, Im not sure if you know this already but I thought I ought to let you know that ad hominem attacks are actually permitted on this site except in the personal issues and support and the introduction threads. Also as far as I'm aware individual members who are not mods or admins don't get to dictate rules of conduct even for threads they start themselves. Suggestions are fine but people are not obliged to conform to them.
Hopefully every one will be productive in discussion but unless rules have changed suddenly this is something you need to be aware of. Good luck in what looks like shaping up to be an interesting thread, I'm looking forward to reading it. Regards Adey.
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15-03-2017, 10:24 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(15-03-2017 09:40 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Over the last 2 years my system is generating an average of about 324 KWH a month. That equates to about $32 a month in savings on our utility bill. The system paid for itself in 14 months. Everything after that is gravy.

I understand that I got a deal, and most people would spend a lot more than I did, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a better than 20% reduction in our household electrical consumption over the 20 year lifespan of my solar panels isn't a net positive for for everybody. Especially considering that a lot of the power consumed around these parts is generated in coal fired plants.

I do admire your ingenuity but for the vast, vast majority of people, a system like yours won't pay off for decades when you factor in the extra cost of home insurance and, depending upon your jurisdiction, the higher property taxes.

As well, the carbon emissions and poisons used/created by the manufacture and transport of the solar panels themselves hasn't been worked into your equation.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for reducing carbon emissions and uncoupling from a government-controlled (or privately controlled) grid whenever possible, both to save money and maintain one's independence. It's just that there are many hidden costs and wastes to solar panels (and wind power generators) that are too often ignored.
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15-03-2017, 10:29 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(14-03-2017 05:09 PM)skyking Wrote:  12 turbines is but an experiment. They will have to adopt wind and other means in a serious scale.

True. Victoria would need more than 3,000 wind turbines to replace the output of our coal-fired generators—at today's loading. Future projections are anybody's guess.

One of the major issues with Aussie wind turbines is that they have an efficiency rating of less than 40%. I often drive past the 12 turbine farm, and note that oftentimes, two or more will not be turning at all.

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