Climate Change - General Discussion
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16-05-2017, 02:40 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(16-05-2017 02:39 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 12:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  No doubt our gifted student Walter will have an explanation for why he brought up this guy?

Walter reminds me of the theists with whom I have argued for so many years. They told me again and again that I was "obviously wrong" but had a hard time pointing out why.

It's ironic, given that he's compared those of us who accept current scientific consensus on global warming to religious zealots. Pretty hard row to hoe Laugh out load

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-05-2017, 09:35 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(16-05-2017 02:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  It's ironic, given that he's compared those of us who accept current scientific consensus on global warming to religious zealots.

I think it's a good analogy.

Science is based upon verifiable data that can be replicated, not whimsical consensus.

Most people seem to be ignorant of the fact that during the last mini-Ice Age, Millions of people (mostly in Central Europe) died of famine. Given that Earth's normal state is one of heavy glaciation, you ought to be thrilled that our globe is warming.

In any event, average global temperatures during this Inter-Glacial Period have not reached or exceeded average global temperatures during the previous Inter-Glacial Period.

The enemy numbered six hundred - including women and children - and we abolished them utterly, leaving not even a baby alive to cry for its dead mother. This is incomparably the greatest victory that was ever achieved by the Christian soldiers of the United States. -- Mark Twain
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16-05-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(16-05-2017 09:35 PM)Mircea Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 02:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  It's ironic, given that he's compared those of us who accept current scientific consensus on global warming to religious zealots.

I think it's a good analogy.

Science is based upon verifiable data that can be replicated, not whimsical consensus.

Most people seem to be ignorant of the fact that during the last mini-Ice Age, Millions of people (mostly in Central Europe) died of famine. Given that Earth's normal state is one of heavy glaciation, you ought to be thrilled that our globe is warming.

In any event, average global temperatures during this Inter-Glacial Period have not reached or exceeded average global temperatures during the previous Inter-Glacial Period.

Christ, another one. For fuck's sake man. Are you a climate scientist? What do you know of climate science? "Whimsical consensus" is what gave us science as we know it today. What do you propose to replace it with?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-05-2017, 04:58 AM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2017 05:13 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(16-05-2017 09:35 PM)Mircea Wrote:  Science is based upon verifiable data that can be replicated, not whimsical consensus.

Most people seem to be ignorant of the fact that during the last mini-Ice Age, Millions of people (mostly in Central Europe) died of famine. Given that Earth's normal state is one of heavy glaciation, you ought to be thrilled that our globe is warming.

In any event, average global temperatures during this Inter-Glacial Period have not reached or exceeded average global temperatures during the previous Inter-Glacial Period.

The scientific consensus is based on two factual premises which, if both are correct, conclusively prove that climate change is happening and that people are causing it. The first premise is that green house gases like CO2 and methane trap heat in our atmosphere. Look at the variations of temperatures on the moon if you doubt this is correct. The second premise is that people are dumping such gases into the atmosphere faster than they can disperse, leading to a buildup. This is well-documented. Since the late 1950s, CO2 has gone from 317 ppm to over 400 ppm. And because of CO2 trapped in ice samples, we know that at the beginning of the industrial revolution the level was 280 ppm. We know this CO2 is from burning fossil fuels because of its isotope. These are your verifiable facts leading to the consensus, and there are other, similar facts supporting this picture as well.

The problem is not that the Earth is warming temporarily but that the CO2 we are dumping will heat the Earth for hundreds of years before it disperses, and that the heat will continue to rise with the level of CO2. Future projections are always uncertain, but to the best of the available information the projections will not be good for us. For instance, at 3 degrees C of warming, we will likely lose the Amazon rainforest, which becomes a positive feedback loop leading to higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. At 4 degrees C, even more CO2 is released from melting permafrost. At 5 degrees C, the methane hydrates in the oceans could melt leading to even more CO2 released. In other words, we don't have a lot of margin until the warming could be out of our control.
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17-05-2017, 11:00 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
"According to an analysis released at a round of United Nations climate talks in Bonn on Monday, China and India could more than compensate for the United States' failure to meet its proposed emissions cuts under the Paris Climate Agreement."

http://mashable.com/2017/05/16/coal-slow...4pBbT49sq3
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17-05-2017, 11:16 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(16-05-2017 09:35 PM)Mircea Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 02:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  It's ironic, given that he's compared those of us who accept current scientific consensus on global warming to religious zealots.

I think it's a good analogy.

Science is based upon verifiable data that can be replicated, not whimsical consensus.

Most people seem to be ignorant of the fact that during the last mini-Ice Age, Millions of people (mostly in Central Europe) died of famine. Given that Earth's normal state is one of heavy glaciation, you ought to be thrilled that our globe is warming.

In any event, average global temperatures during this Inter-Glacial Period have not reached or exceeded average global temperatures during the previous Inter-Glacial Period.

"Science is based upon verifiable data that can be replicated, not whimsical consensus."

And the science of climate change is based on verifiable and falsifiable data, experiments, and independently verified conclusions published in the scientific literature.

"Most people seem to be ignorant of the fact that during the last mini-Ice Age, Millions of people (mostly in Central Europe) died of famine."

Which, assuming that the famine can be directly linked to cooling, highlights the problems associated with changing climates. Whether it is geologically rapid cooling or warming is irrelevant. What is important is whether or not the rate of climate change exceeds the rate at which a species, community, and/or ecosystem can adapt.

"Given that Earth's normal state is one of heavy glaciation, you ought to be thrilled that our globe is warming. "

1) the Earth has no "normal" state
2) if you look at the geologic data, the Earth has spent more time unglaciated in what we consider to be a Greenhouse climate state
3) It isn't the direction (cooling vs warming) of change that matters most, so no this isn't something to be "thrilled" about by default. The important things to highlight are: the fact that climates on Earth are changing and the fact that human perturbation of the global carbon cycle is a major contributing factor.

"In any event, average global temperatures during this Inter-Glacial Period have not reached or exceeded average global temperatures during the previous Inter-Glacial Period."

The magnitude at this point in time isn't the issue. The issue is the rate of change (which is faster than any other point in geologic history as best we can tell) and the fact that at the current rate the overall magnitude of warming could exceed temperatures not experienced on Earth since humans have been around (and probably not since the PETM or end-Permian mass extinction)



Side note: there is no such thing as a global climate. Climate refers to more specific parameters for a given region. The Earth has a variety of climates. So when we discuss climate change, we are discussing the redistribution of climate zones on Earth and/or the transition from one climate state to another (Greenhouse state vs Icehouse state).

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17-05-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(16-05-2017 09:14 AM)Walter Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 08:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  For fucks sake you idiot, post links to studies or something. Just throwing shit to see what sticks isn't anything to do with science.

Thanks for the reply.

You want to ignore 60 years of science fraud (confirmation bias for delicate ears) with respect to the lipid/heart hypothesis which is still being promoted by government scientists and applauded by Big Food and Big Pharma. And that fraud, saturated animal fat fear mongering, is still going on. Jesus Christ!

And all perfectly dandy for 97% of this site’s members.

Which of the 50,000 peer reviewed nutrition studies, confirming that hypothesis, would you like me to link?

And now thinking atheists give more credibility to Michael Mann and Bill Nye than to Michael Crichton and William Happer. Good God.

But of course, I am the idiot. That is just great. And too damn funny. Use that skeptical brain which God bestowed on you. I always wonder how skepticism can be so easily switched on (the supernatural, nutrition science) and off (climate science). How do you do that?

Science fails when adopting a creed.

Michael Crichton and William Happer are not climate scientists, so your argument fails miserably. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-05-2017, 09:58 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(17-05-2017 11:00 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  "According to an analysis released at a round of United Nations climate talks in Bonn on Monday, China and India could more than compensate for the United States' failure to meet its proposed emissions cuts under the Paris Climate Agreement."

http://mashable.com/2017/05/16/coal-slow...4pBbT49sq3

It's worse. China has actually listened to Bill Nye and is planning to supplant the United States as the technology leader of the next century, while our "billionaires who make their money from the status quo of a carbon energy economy and the military infrastructure necessary to exploit those resources" class have kept us stuck in the 20th century.

Global Warming may indeed destroy the USA, even if none of the effects of the shift in global climate patterns impact us directly, and even if the refugee and resource crises that are coming do not directly impact us. We will simply taper away into a debt-ridden service and consumer economy while the rest of the world surges ahead to deal with the looming problems, and China reaps the benefits. (At which point, our billionaire class will jump to another country via their international corporations' connections/lands, leaving the USA behind like ticks jumping off of a drained-and-dying dog.)




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-05-2017, 10:56 AM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
(18-05-2017 09:58 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  China has actually listened to Bill Nye and is planning to supplant the United States as the technology leader of the next century, while our "billionaires who make their money from the status quo of a carbon energy economy and the military infrastructure necessary to exploit those resources" class have kept us stuck in the 20th century.

We missed the bus when Trump was elected. At least Clinton had plans for climate change and renewable energy.
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18-05-2017, 10:21 PM
RE: Climate Change - General Discussion
Okay, I'm going to be going away for a while. Keep up the good work, fellas.

"Men willingly believe what they wish." -Julius Caesar
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