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Climate denialism
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08-08-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: Climate denialism
The connection between evolution denial and anthropogenic climate change denial
is that if you admit that evolution is true, it makes us animals; if you admit that
anthropogenic climate change is real, it makes us stupid animals. Drinking Beverage

That's just too much to bear. Weeping

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-08-2014, 08:58 PM
RE: Climate denialism
(08-08-2014 04:06 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  I was talking to someone about potential ways to slow or reverse the global warming, and they were all, "We shouldn't do anything. Climate change is natural, people aren't causing it."

"So IF thats true, were still heading into a shitstorm. Why shouldn't we at least try to reduce or reverse the impact?"

That's when they went full retard, "Its Gods will"

So THIS is what they mean by "God's will" killing us heathens in a burning lake of fire Gasp

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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09-08-2014, 06:10 AM
RE: Climate denialism
The silly thing here is that I can kinda see how some of the climate science is tricky to understand for average Joe (the Plumber), and that many aren't convinced by anthropogenic climate change because the bigger picture can be hard to wrap your head around so it's easier and more comfortable to blame non-human courses and assert that humans cannot have that kind of impact.

Now, there is no excuse for denying that humans can have a global impact though! Scientist are talking about us being on the brink of a sixth mass extinction, and not because of huge meteors from space or the incredible powers of continental drift, ice ages and supervolcanoes, but because humans and human activities are destroying ecosystems and outright killing off species...

Parts of it also comes down to (anthropogenic) climate change, but the huge parts that are destruction of ecosystems through deforestation, dams, roads, and other construction projects as well as outright destruction through pollution, and of course mass killings and exploitation of species, are downright undeniable for any sane person.

It takes a minimum of grasp of course and effect to understand that if you are killing something off faster than it can reproduce, or don't even give it a chance to reproduce (destruction of ecosystems and living space), then is disappears.
And with the rate species have disappeared in the last 500 years, brother, it all points to us.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...171956.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-ani...extinction

Sum up - Extinction of species through stuff like overfishing, hunting and destroying natural habitats through fx. deforestation is not hard to understand, and we are definitely coursing that on a global scale. So if we can have that kind of global impact, then why couldn't we course, say, global warming? Wink
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09-08-2014, 10:13 AM
RE: Climate denialism
I have always thought of it like this. How long would it take a huge increase in pollution to affect things on a global scale? A couple hundred years maybe? How long has the industrial revolution been going? A couple hundred years. I don't see how that is hard to understand.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-08-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Climate denialism
(09-08-2014 10:13 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I have always thought of it like this. How long would it take a huge increase in pollution to affect things on a global scale? A couple hundred years maybe? How long has the industrial revolution been going? A couple hundred years. I don't see how that is hard to understand.

Most people don't understand math. What's worse, they're too shallow to know the true extent of what they don't know.

Naive intuition thinks in linear terms. Human populations and outputs work as exponentials.

The gap between those modes of understanding is either bridged by education or widened by willful ignorance.

The latter have well and truly fucked us.

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09-08-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: Climate denialism
(09-08-2014 11:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-08-2014 10:13 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I have always thought of it like this. How long would it take a huge increase in pollution to affect things on a global scale? A couple hundred years maybe? How long has the industrial revolution been going? A couple hundred years. I don't see how that is hard to understand.

Most people don't understand math. What's worse, they're too shallow to know the true extent of what they don't know.

Naive intuition thinks in linear terms. Human populations and outputs work as exponentials.

The gap between those modes of understanding is either bridged by education or widened by willful ignorance.

The latter have well and truly fucked us.

Indeed, they play to the soft middle by introducing just enough doubt in stupid and uninformed people that the effort that is required to clean up the mess gets tabled and pushed off. Their next line will be "Well it's too late now might as well keep doing it."

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-08-2014, 01:27 PM
RE: Climate denialism
(09-08-2014 11:06 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-08-2014 11:01 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Most people don't understand math. What's worse, they're too shallow to know the true extent of what they don't know.

Naive intuition thinks in linear terms. Human populations and outputs work as exponentials.

The gap between those modes of understanding is either bridged by education or widened by willful ignorance.

The latter have well and truly fucked us.

Indeed, they play to the soft middle by introducing just enough doubt in stupid and uninformed people that the effort that is required to clean up the mess gets tabled and pushed off. Their next line will be "Well it's too late now might as well keep doing it."

[Image: 20091020luguang10.jpg]

People do not understand just how little atmosphere there is.

If the earth was an apple, the atmosphere would be not even be the thickness of the skin.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2014, 06:30 AM
RE: Climate denialism
Quote:The best comparison to make is denial of evolution.
Evolution is about what happened in the past. Climate change is predictions of what will happen in the future. There doesn't seem to be much difference between these predictions and religious prophesy. For example, it used to be called "global warming" until the warming stopped. Rather than admit the prediction was wrong they simply change the name to "climate change". Now, like a religious fanatic looking for signs of the end times, every natural disaster is a sign of doom.
I wish we could get some really objective evidence devoid of politics and self-interest.

Quote:equally as perplexing are those that seem to buy that climate change is real but that humans have no discernible influence (because to do so would mean we are not acting in our own best interests).
What is "in our own best interests" is subjective. I assume you're talking about the long-term interest of the human race as a whole. But there is also concern for the short-term interest of us living today. The two are often in conflict. The industrial revolution may have been bad for the long-term survival of the human race but it also was good for many generations of humans because it improved our standard of living and expanded our life expectancy. So who decides what is a fair balance? Eliminate coal power plants and it's good for mankind in the long term, but it makes electricity much more expensive and creates hardship for low-income people now. We need to stop pretending there's no short-term cost to our long-term self interest.

There is an emotional component to this question which is often overlooked. I'll sometimes ask people, "If you had a choice between a short happy life or a long miserable one, which would you choose?". Nearly everyone says "short happy life". And I think the same is true of the debate over climate change. It's not that people deny it, it's that they think a short happy existence trumps a long miserable one. If we could switch to renewable energy sources without paying more, if they were just as convenient as fossil fuel, and we were just as happy as before; then the decision would be easy. When the solutions to our energy problems benefit the rich and hurt the poor we shouldn't be surprised when they reject them.
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10-08-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: Climate denialism
Money, politics and religion. Ugh, religion. The biggest enemy to progress. I will never understand.
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10-08-2014, 01:53 PM
RE: Climate denialism
I've said it before...

The person unwilling to leave their car running, close all the garage doors & windows, and pull up a lawn chair near the tailpipe to take a nap on, needs to explain why, when they know enough "bad air" could accumulate in the closed system of their garage, they are unable to grasp how the same thing could happen in the closed system of Earth given the millions of mini-CO2-factories driving around on it daily!

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