Combating certain lines of reasoning
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21-03-2014, 06:50 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2014 06:55 PM by Charis.)
Combating certain lines of reasoning
Throughout this thread, I will list lines of thought that I have either heard used or used myself. Please help with them, as these lines are used by many. If any of you are familiar with the heavy, heavy evangelism scene, you will likely recognize at least some (if not all) of these:

Ok, here's the first:

Non-Christian (NC): You can't say that the Bible's guaranteed infallible. It's a book compiled by fallible man. You can't trust it like that. You need actual evidence.
Christian(C ): How old are you?
NC: What? I'm 25.
C: I don't believe you.
NC: ....
C: Do you have evidence?
NC: Well yeah, my license, my birth certificate, my Social Security Card...
C: That's not good enough. Those were written by fallible man. I need actual evidence.
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21-03-2014, 08:05 PM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(21-03-2014 06:50 PM)Charis Wrote:  Throughout this thread, I will list lines of thought that I have either heard used or used myself. Please help with them, as these lines are used by many. If any of you are familiar with the heavy, heavy evangelism scene, you will likely recognize at least some (if not all) of these:

Ok, here's the first:

Non-Christian (NC): You can't say that the Bible's guaranteed infallible. It's a book compiled by fallible man. You can't trust it like that. You need actual evidence.
Christian(C ): How old are you?
NC: What? I'm 25.
C: I don't believe you.
NC: ....
C: Do you have evidence?
NC: Well yeah, my license, my birth certificate, my Social Security Card...
C: That's not good enough. Those were written by fallible man. I need actual evidence.

You are making an ordinary claim (your age) and have provided sufficient ordinary evidence.

The Bible makes truly extraordinary claims and there is no extraordinary evidence to back them up.

The Bible is not evidence. It is the claim.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-03-2014, 06:56 AM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
It's also unlikely the cards are the only thing you have. Unless there have been a lot of house fires in your past, photographs and home videos of you through your years probably exist. You can probably gather up a dozen or so people to describe some moments from your life, or otherwise witness for you, and there won't be any quarrels over which parts of your life are symbolic and which parts they can throw out. Granted, you couldn't pull these out on the spot, but they would be options if you had sufficient time.

And it seems unlikely your drivers license was translated a dozen or so times before you got it.
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22-03-2014, 07:58 AM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
Well at least you can show yourself to prove that you actually exist,however that's not the case for God at all.

Bible says "God exists' but provides no evidence to back that up.

Science book says "Gravity exists" and provides sufficient reasoning&evidence to back that up.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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22-03-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
You could just point out to them that THEY are making an equal comparison between their holy bible and your driver's license.......

Blink

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22-03-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(22-03-2014 08:02 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You could just point out to them that THEY are making an equal comparison between their holy bible and your driver's license.......

Blink

Yeah, I was going to say false equivocation, but this works, too.
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22-03-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(22-03-2014 08:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 08:02 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You could just point out to them that THEY are making an equal comparison between their holy bible and your driver's license.......

Blink

Yeah, I was going to say false equivocation, but this works, too.

Not so much false - but to my way of thinking THEY reduced the Holy-epic-ness of their own bible when they equated it with a driver's licence putting it square in the department of an item created BY man and therefore fallible.
The Reduction of the Bible to something mundane and regular; even commonplace is the key element going here.

yanno............just sayin. *wink wink nudge nudge*


I've found it's always best to let the other person completely sink their own argument. You need only point out that it happened.
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22-03-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(22-03-2014 09:00 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 08:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Yeah, I was going to say false equivocation, but this works, too.

Not so much false - but to my way of thinking THEY reduced the Holy-epic-ness of their own bible when they equated it with a driver's licence putting it square in the department of an item created BY man and therefore fallible.
The Reduction of the Bible to something mundane and regular; even commonplace is the key element going here.

yanno............just sayin. *wink wink nudge nudge*


I've found it's always best to let the other person completely sink their own argument. You need only point out that it happened.
BowingCoolEvil_monster

I can't agree with this more. It's like when they say something like, "Well, you can't prove Homer existed." I say, you're right, but he wrote the fictional Odyssey and the fate of humans isn't hanging in the balance based on our belief if he existed. When I agree that Homer may not have existed they just stare at me like a deer in headlights as if I removed all life from their "gotcha" moment.

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22-03-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(21-03-2014 06:50 PM)Charis Wrote:  Throughout this thread, I will list lines of thought that I have either heard used or used myself. Please help with them, as these lines are used by many. If any of you are familiar with the heavy, heavy evangelism scene, you will likely recognize at least some (if not all) of these:

Ok, here's the first:

Non-Christian (NC): You can't say that the Bible's guaranteed infallible. It's a book compiled by fallible man. You can't trust it like that. You need actual evidence.
Christian(C ): How old are you?
NC: What? I'm 25.
C: I don't believe you.
NC: ....
C: Do you have evidence?
NC: Well yeah, my license, my birth certificate, my Social Security Card...
C: That's not good enough. Those were written by fallible[/code] man. I need actual evidence.

Isnt it obvious to the christian that you are a terrorist and stole the drivers license, social security number and birth certificate to hide your identity ?

Would this work when arguing with a Muslim that bits of the Quran were plagiarized ?

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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22-03-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
Meant to post this this morning, but apparently the 'puter wasn't cooperating:


Your claim of being 25 years old is quite ordinary and does not require any extraordinary evidence.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


And claims presented without evidence can be summarily dismissed without evidence.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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