Combating certain lines of reasoning
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24-03-2014, 07:53 AM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2014 07:56 AM by CONVERSIONTUBE.)
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(21-03-2014 06:50 PM)Charis Wrote:  Throughout this thread, I will list lines of thought that I have either heard used or used myself. Please help with them, as these lines are used by many. If any of you are familiar with the heavy, heavy evangelism scene, you will likely recognize at least some (if not all) of these:

Ok, here's the first:

Non-Christian (NC): You can't say that the Bible's guaranteed infallible. It's a book compiled by fallible man. You can't trust it like that. You need actual evidence.
Christian(C ): How old are you?
NC: What? I'm 25.
C: I don't believe you.
NC: ....
C: Do you have evidence?
NC: Well yeah, my license, my birth certificate, my Social Security Card...
C: That's not good enough. Those were written by fallible man. I need actual evidence.

Introduce them to your parents and the delivery doctor. I don't think your mom's vagina is hearsay is it?
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25-03-2014, 12:22 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2014 12:29 AM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
As has already been said, that line of reasoning fails to distinguish between ordinary and extraordinary claims. In addition, the application of the claim that identification materials were written by fallible men is an inefficient rebuttal since the the system which produces them is consistent, rigid, and has a set of standard procedures that dictates the process, leading to a much higher confidence in its accuracy (whether operated by fallible men or not); none of which can be said for the practice of scriptural interpretation.

As for the topic of ordinary and extraordinary claims, while it may technically be true that one approaching every mundane claim the same way you would if a person claimed to have a pet dragon in their backyard makes for a more consistent UBER SKEPTIC EXPERIENCE, it doesn't means it is particularly efficient. We are social animals; we have ingrained, biological motivations to accept ordinary claims made by others (even if we may even fib those details from time to time) as a means to construct social interactions. The whole "social" part of our nature would be considerably strained if we treated every trivial claim with the same amount of skepticism.

Person 1:"So I went to the baseball game last Saturday."
Person 2:"Really? I don't believe you."
Person 1:"Why would I lie about that?"
Person 2:"I don't know, maybe you aren't even lying and were in fact confused and hallucinating, but truly believed you actually witnessed a baseball game. Maybe you indeed were at a baseball game, but until you provide solid, irrefutable evidence, I will not believe in your claim."
Person 1: "Well fuck you man! If that's going to be your response to everything I say I did last weekend, I'm not interested in talking to you anymore."

That would be how social interactions would play out. As you can see, not particularly productive.

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25-03-2014, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2014 01:54 AM by Stevil.)
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(21-03-2014 06:50 PM)Charis Wrote:  NC: Well yeah, my license, my birth certificate, my Social Security Card...
C: That's not good enough. Those were written by fallible man. I need actual evidence.
Is Jesus' birth certificate, social security card and license contained in the bible?

There is a big difference between official (impartial) documents based on standard procedure and anecdotal stories written by anonymous authors.
and yeah, we should be weary that these documents can be forged.

These documents are reasonable, they don't tell us to be mean to gay people. To kill doves and pigeons to cleans a woman from her period. They don't tell us to marry our rapist. They are merely official documents for identity reference.

Edit: You also have a means to verify. Call up the hospital, call up the Transport Agency, etc. I've created online purchase systems and when verification is provided we send the details off to an independent third party and they can verify the details by matching ID with the name and DOB etc as it is in their database.
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25-03-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
I'd just say "I agree" and leave them to think about it.

OR "Why do you need actual evidence of my age?"
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04-05-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(21-03-2014 06:50 PM)Charis Wrote:  Throughout this thread, I will list lines of thought that I have either heard used or used myself. Please help with them, as these lines are used by many. If any of you are familiar with the heavy, heavy evangelism scene, you will likely recognize at least some (if not all) of these:

Ok, here's the first:

Non-Christian (NC): You can't say that the Bible's guaranteed infallible. It's a book compiled by fallible man. You can't trust it like that. You need actual evidence.
Christian(C ): How old are you?
NC: What? I'm 25.
C: I don't believe you.
NC: ....
C: Do you have evidence?
NC: Well yeah, my license, my birth certificate, my Social Security Card...
C: That's not good enough. Those were written by fallible man. I need actual evidence.

There are scientific ways of getting this evidence.

Estimating age via xray/bone growth. wiki

http://anthropology.si.edu/writteninbone/young_old.html

Bam, scientific ways of getting evidence that doesn't require "fallible" documents. Cold. Hard. Facts.

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04-05-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: Combating certain lines of reasoning
(25-03-2014 01:28 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Edit: You also have a means to verify. Call up the hospital, call up the Transport Agency, etc. I've created online purchase systems and when verification is provided we send the details off to an independent third party and they can verify the details by matching ID with the name and DOB etc as it is in their database.
That has also been mentioned in similar conversations (it's a common analogy in certain circles, so I heard varying forms of this dialogue quite a lot), and the rebuttal was that we're still relying on humans at these establishments and fallible human records... and if we trust THEM, then there's no reason we can't trust the human accounts in the Bible.


(04-05-2014 06:24 PM)LandShark Wrote:  There are scientific ways of getting this evidence.

Estimating age via xray/bone growth. wiki

http://anthropology.si.edu/writteninbone/young_old.html

Bam, scientific ways of getting evidence that doesn't require "fallible" documents. Cold. Hard. Facts.
And love this. ^^^ Thank you.


Since starting this thread, I've discovered the RationalWiki site. Love it.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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