Commentary on Alla and Mark
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10-11-2015, 03:56 AM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(10-11-2015 03:55 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 09:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  Do you remember reading about the Lamanites? Consider

Your book states that after the Lamanites and Nephites separated, the Lamanites received a curse of a "skin of blackness" so that they would "not be enticing" to the Nephites.

Yes this is vaguely ringing bells from when the Mormons visited me 12 years ago. Please fill us lazy souls in and tennis more about the lemon nights.

Of course I could have meant "tell us more about the lamanites"
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10-11-2015, 05:37 AM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(09-11-2015 08:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  LDS Church never discriminated anybody because of skin color.
LDS Church never had a doctrine that people of African heritage can not have rights and privileges because of their skin color.
Skin color has nothing to do with anything.

Alla,

Cosmic Discourse has stated this -

"Though blacks were welcome to attend church services and become part of the membership, black males were not allowed to be in the priesthood, which by default is limiting/restricting blessings of the "gospel".

I've emboldened the relevant bit here ^^^

This is discrimination. You can refuse to see that if you wish as is your prerogative but the facts don't really care what you'd prefer it to be.

To deny someone something based on the colour of their skin is to discriminate against them because of their skin colour. They were not excluded because they did not pass an exam, they were excluded because they had dark skin.

So your statement above is wrong. The Mormon church has indeed discriminated against people because of skin colour.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

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10-11-2015, 05:38 AM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(10-11-2015 02:17 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla insists...

"Paul said that Jewish Law has to be replaced with faith in Christ. You failed to provide a quote were Paul sates this.
"to replace Law with faith in Christ" is not "to be or not to be justified by Law" "


Am I missing something?

I have no idea why she keeps saying this, or, in fact, what her point is.

I've quoted Paul writing a number of times that faith in Christ replaces the law.

Does anyone else understand what she is trying to say?

I'm sure she believes she has some semantics-based point to make, just as she's trying to justify her church's racist theology and practices by trying to use a special and limited definition of racism.

I'd speculate that her "point" to you is that the path to heaven through total obedience to all of those stupid OT laws is still available (just not possible to be achieved, but that's another story) and therefore Paul was not "replacing" that possibility, just adding an easier way through Jeebus. That's my best guess at this particular piece of Alla-illogic.
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10-11-2015, 05:59 AM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(10-11-2015 02:50 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(09-11-2015 09:46 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Look, I don't get what you heathens don't get about this; the book doesn't matter. You see, it's because our profits receive direct communications from God which supersede the book in infallibility until another profit gets a new communication to overrule that one.

But sometimes da prophets are wrong. They don't know LDS doctrine.

Sometimes da Paul is wrong because he's just giving an opinion.

All the time da god is correct, but only some of what da Paul says god says is correct. Sometimes what da prophets say god says is correct, but sometimes not. You gotta ask da spirit, but not da spirit in da book that was compiled by da bad men.

I know all this because da real spirit tells me. Yeah, da spirit sits on my shoulder like a parrot and whispers da truth in my ear. So I am not interested in any idea unless it comes from da spirit. I don't care what you think. I want you all to know that I'm right and you are all wrong. This is all about me, me and me...oh...and da spirit.

I would say that's an accurate assessment of how she thinks (I use that word loosely). I would also say a lot of people in need of psychiatric help have identical processes at work in their brain.

Mormonism- A belief or a psychological issue? I really can't tell the difference.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-11-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(09-11-2015 06:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  DANCEFORTWO quote:
"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today… The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter we represent, the little member girl—sixteen—sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather… These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness."

How you believe this shit is beyond me. Given enough time I think could convince you that pigs fly.


ALLA:
I didn't observe what he observed. But my understanding of his words is that curse has been lifted.
Skin color is not the curse. Skin color doesn't matter.

When lighter skin is considered progress by a church leader, then yes, skin color does matter.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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10-11-2015, 02:09 PM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(10-11-2015 05:38 AM)julep Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 02:17 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla insists...

"Paul said that Jewish Law has to be replaced with faith in Christ. You failed to provide a quote were Paul sates this.
"to replace Law with faith in Christ" is not "to be or not to be justified by Law" "


Am I missing something?

I have no idea why she keeps saying this, or, in fact, what her point is.

I've quoted Paul writing a number of times that faith in Christ replaces the law.

Does anyone else understand what she is trying to say?

I'm sure she believes she has some semantics-based point to make, just as she's trying to justify her church's racist theology and practices by trying to use a special and limited definition of racism.

I'd speculate that her "point" to you is that the path to heaven through total obedience to all of those stupid OT laws is still available (just not possible to be achieved, but that's another story) and therefore Paul was not "replacing" that possibility, just adding an easier way through Jeebus. That's my best guess at this particular piece of Alla-illogic.

Thanks for explaining. Bloody hell. What a pointless thing to make an issue out of.
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10-11-2015, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2015 03:53 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(10-11-2015 05:59 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 02:50 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  But sometimes da prophets are wrong. They don't know LDS doctrine.

Sometimes da Paul is wrong because he's just giving an opinion.

All the time da god is correct, but only some of what da Paul says god says is correct. Sometimes what da prophets say god says is correct, but sometimes not. You gotta ask da spirit, but not da spirit in da book that was compiled by da bad men.

I know all this because da real spirit tells me. Yeah, da spirit sits on my shoulder like a parrot and whispers da truth in my ear. So I am not interested in any idea unless it comes from da spirit. I don't care what you think. I want you all to know that I'm right and you are all wrong. This is all about me, me and me...oh...and da spirit.

I would say that's an accurate assessment of how she thinks (I use that word loosely). I would also say a lot of people in need of psychiatric help have identical processes at work in their brain.

Mormonism- A belief or a psychological issue? I really can't tell the difference.

Alla's view of how things are seems to depend on...

- the book of Mormon, although she thinks it has faults

- the bible, and it too has faults, according to Alla

- old Mormon men in suits, who she calls "prophets" and they too can be wrong

- something called "the spirit" who she thinks talks to her

All rational intercourse or study of history that isn't entwined in this jumbled mess of ideas is, to her, irrelevant. At least that is what she claims.

Yet she is here. That begs the question why. Could it be that she is one step away from realising that all these authorities are nonsense?
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10-11-2015, 03:59 PM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(10-11-2015 03:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla's view of how things are seems to depend on...

- the book of Mormon, although she thinks it has faults

- the bible, and it too has faults, according to Alla

- old Mormon men in suits, who she calls "prophets" and they too can be wrong

- something called "the spirit" who she thinks talks to her

All rational intercourse or study of history that isn't entwined in this jumbled mess of ideas is, to her, irrelevant. At least that is what she claims.

Yet she is here. That begs the question why. Could it be that she is one step away from realising that all these authorities are nonsense?

Hope springs eternal. Big Grin

You, sir, are a dewy-eyed optimist. Yes

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-11-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
(10-11-2015 03:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 05:59 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I would say that's an accurate assessment of how she thinks (I use that word loosely). I would also say a lot of people in need of psychiatric help have identical processes at work in their brain.

Mormonism- A belief or a psychological issue? I really can't tell the difference.

Alla's view of how things are seems to depend on...

- the book of Mormon, although she thinks it has faults

- the bible, and it too has faults, according to Alla

- old Mormon men in suits, who she calls "prophets" and they too can be wrong

- something called "the spirit" who she thinks talks to her

All rational intercourse or study of history that isn't entwined in this jumbled mess of ideas is, to her, irrelevant. At least that is what she claims.

Yet she is here. That begs the question why. Could it be that she is one step away from realising that all these authorities are nonsense?

Negative attention is still attention…some people don't get enough of it offline. I suspect she's calculated that a conversion to atheism will get a temporary flow of attention, but a permanent devotion to Mormonism keeps the replies coming.

It's great that she's here, because now I know a lot more about Paul and Mormonism, and the lies of Trump and Carson, thanks to all of the people who have corrected Alla's misstatements.
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10-11-2015, 04:44 PM
RE: Commentary on Alla and Mark
There's an old saying that goes.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt.

_________________________________________________________________


And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities."
(2 Nephi 5:21)

In case there is any misunderstanding or doubt. This is Flint.
[Image: 640px-Flint.jpg]

The Mark of blackness was placed upon Lamanites so the Nephites
"might not mix and believe in incorrect tradtions which would prove their destruction" (Alma 3:7 -9)

In laymans terms. Don't have sex with black people! Or in the very least, not White!

not convinced?

And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
(2 Nephi 5:21)



The Mormons like many other religions have have done is adjust their veiws to fit the times. If they don't they'll loose members, with no members they can't keep the religion machine moving. Which is why they changed the "message" in the 1970's to forgive black people for being black. The time when the human rights movement was making major strides.

Before his death Joseph Smith was asked by a patren
"Are the mormon Abolitionists?"

His reply. "No.. We do not believe in setting the Negros free." (Smith 1977, p. 120)

Abolitionists - was a movement to end slavery, in western Europe and America.
In case you didn't know.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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