Commentary on the Historicity Of The Christian Greek Scriptures Thread
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04-11-2012, 06:50 AM
RE: Commentary on the Historicity Of The Christian Greek Scriptures Thread
"Are you joking? The entire collection of four accounts are exclusively
devoted to the very thing you are claiming doesn't exist."

There you have it. That is a perfect example of his problem.
A gospel is not an "account".
One cannot read an ancient piece of literature, and slap a 21st Century worldview on it.

First of all, didyouknowthatwhentheancientswrotethingsdowntheyactuallylookedlikethisnandtheyha​dtoreadsomethingoutloudtomakeitturnintosomethingthatmadesence ?!
http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9804/ip.html

They did not even necessarily have spaces between the words in their written texts. We assume when we read something today it looked and meant the same thing as it did then. It didn't. The Old Testament's texts are not "accounts", and neither are the New Testament texts "accounts"

A "gospel" was a "proclamation text" of the "good news". Not "the news", Not the "bad news and the good news".
Just the "good news". Thus they are inherently biased, and THAT is the very essence of that form of literature.
Over and over, various Christians, even up to this day, say they are "proclaiming" the "good news".
When Paul speaks about "gospel" he says he is proclaiming HIS "good news". He says he received HIS "good news" by a flash of divine intervention, and "received" it from no one. (See "Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth thread"). Thus we know he just made up *his* "good news", and he insists that he did this, and tells us he did this.

The gospels were not written for (general) "reading". The literacy rate was less than 5%, and the gospel scrolls were rare objects.
They were not available to the public. Scrolls were locked up, and "rolled" up, and "protected" by outer coverings. They were used ONLY in liturgical events, or "worship services", where they were read or sung aloud to the assembled congregation during a specific part of the liturgical proceeding. They were never intended as "historical accounts". They were statements of belief, written BY believers, FOR believers, to remind them what they ALREADY believed. (No better example of "circular" could possibly exist).
Thus using that sort of essentially biased text, created for a self admitted "biased" purpose to attempt to say anything objective, or expect it to be reliable today is simply impossible.

Then there is the whole problem with the notion of "historical", and what that did or did not mean to people of that day.
There was no word in archaic or Biblical Hebrew which corresponds to "historical", as we mean that word today.
The entire discipline and methodology of History as a discipline arose later. It did not exist in ancient Israel, and even in Rome, they were arguing about the methods, and condemning each other, and criticizing each other at the time of Tacitus, for their use or non-use of authentic historical methodology. The authors of the gospels did not "know" of "history as a discipline", nor did they employ it. They could not have "written to" a standard they were unaware of.

The problem of "inspiration" is another matter, and is dealt with here.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...e+way+down

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-11-2012, 08:08 PM
RE: Commentary on the Historicity Of The Christian Greek Scriptures Thread
(04-11-2012 06:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Are you joking? The entire collection of four accounts are exclusively
devoted to the very thing you are claiming doesn't exist."

There you have it. That is a perfect example of his problem.
A gospel is not an "account".
One cannot read an ancient piece of literature, and slap a 21st Century worldview on it.

First of all, didyouknowthatwhentheancientswrotethingsdowntheyactuallylookedlikethisnandtheyha​dtoreadsomethingoutloudtomakeitturnintosomethingthatmadesence ?!
http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9804/ip.html

They did not even necessarily have spaces between the words in their written texts. We assume when we read something today it looked and meant the same thing as it did then. It didn't. The Old Testament's texts are not "accounts", and neither are the New Testament texts "accounts"

A "gospel" was a "proclamation text" of the "good news". Not "the news", Not the "bad news and the good news".
Just the "good news". Thus they are inherently biased, and THAT is the very essence of that form of literature.
Over and over, various Christians, even up to this day, say they are "proclaiming" the "good news".
When Paul speaks about "gospel" he says he is proclaiming HIS "good news". He says he received HIS "good news" by a flash of divine intervention, and "received" it from no one. (See "Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth thread"). Thus we know he just made up *his* "good news", and he insists that he did this, and tells us he did this.

The gospels were not written for (general) "reading". The literacy rate was less than 5%, and the gospel scrolls were rare objects.
They were not available to the public. Scrolls were locked up, and "rolled" up, and "protected" by outer coverings. They were used ONLY in liturgical events, or "worship services", where they were read or sung aloud to the assembled congregation during a specific part of the liturgical proceeding. They were never intended as "historical accounts". They were statements of belief, written BY believers, FOR believers, to remind them what they ALREADY believed. (No better example of "circular" could possibly exist).
Thus using that sort of essentially biased text, created for a self admitted "biased" purpose to attempt to say anything objective, or expect it to be reliable today is simply impossible.

Then there is the whole problem with the notion of "historical", and what that did or did not mean to people of that day.
There was no word in archaic or Biblical Hebrew which corresponds to "historical", as we mean that word today.
The entire discipline and methodology of History as a discipline arose later. It did not exist in ancient Israel, and even in Rome, they were arguing about the methods, and condemning each other, and criticizing each other at the time of Tacitus, for their use or non-use of authentic historical methodology. The authors of the gospels did not "know" of "history as a discipline", nor did they employ it. They could not have "written to" a standard they were unaware of.

The problem of "inspiration" is another matter, and is dealt with here.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...e+way+down



What you say about gospels is really interesting. Damn! I'm going to have to change some lines in my book! LOL
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06-11-2012, 03:57 PM
RE: Commentary on the Historicity Of The Christian Greek Scriptures Thread
The Theist Last Visit:
Today 09:08 AM
Is this debate abandoned/forfeit ?

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-11-2012, 02:17 PM
RE: Commentary on the Historicity Of The Christian Greek Scriptures Thread
(04-11-2012 06:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  First of all, didyouknowthatwhentheancientswrotethingsdowntheyactuallylookedlikethisnandtheyha​dtoreadsomethingoutloudtomakeitturnintosomethingthatmadesence ?!

That was surprisingly easy for me to parse. Maybe I should study German. ... Consider ... nah, fuck it let 'em learn English if they want to bother, errr I mean talk to, me.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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