Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
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12-10-2011, 07:37 AM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 06:57 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  
(12-10-2011 06:36 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I have to make the point again though that "the true tenets of Christianity" are NOT about loving people and getting on with others.

You are right, Mark, I was imprecise again.

I should have said: "what they considered to be the true tenets of christianity".

I'm glad we agree.

BTW, I loved my dad like crazy too, and he was a good man and a catholic. He died a long time ago, yet if he was alive today I doubt he would still be a catholic. The thinking world has moved on.....well, it has here in Australia and most of Europe. People are leaving catholicism in droves...the catholic churches only have elderly and dwindling congregations. Some evangelical churches are doing ok...but they are just circuses run by businessmen entertaining the lower middle classes.

My point is that good, nice, educated people used to go to church and believe in God (maybe like your mum and my dad), but generally speaking don't now (unless they're quite elderly). Church here in Australia, for those who bother, is for young families looking for a cheap way to entertain themselves and the kids without having to think too much. Turn the brain off, dance and clap for an hour, become part of a noisy mob. It is like Macdonalds...satisfying but cheap, generic and ultimately not good for you. They fill the punters' heads with toxic rubbish as they take their money.

I'm disgusted....and it is the innocent children that I feel sorriest for. That is why I'm a noisy opinionated ranter.
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12-10-2011, 08:17 AM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 07:37 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  My point is that good, nice, educated people used to go to church and believe in God (maybe like your mum and my dad), but generally speaking don't now (unless they're quite elderly). Church here in Australia, for those who bother, is for young families looking for a cheap way to entertain themselves and the kids without having to think too much. Turn the brain off, dance and clap for an hour, become part of a noisy mob. It is like Macdonalds...satisfying but cheap, generic and ultimately not good for you. They fill the punters' heads with toxic rubbish as they take their money.

Religion, like everything else in societies, is fluid: it changes over time.
Quiet, unassuming catholicism or protestantism has given way to aggressive fundamentalism, because of the political and economic forces that have come and gone on a particular continent. Congregations are no longer independent communities, concerned with local life; they've gone global, joined a chain, as it were. Like Macdonalds or Walmart, and with the same blind fungoid ambition: to own the world.

Good people behave well in any system; bad people behave badly in any system.
Christianity is certainly big enough to contain a variety of attitudes and relationships - quite different from, and even hostile to, one another.
No individual takes in the entire canon, or even all the sermons in all the gospels, any more than they memorize constitutional law or learn the statutes of their own city.
People respond to what has meaning for them and keep what suits their temperament. The preachers pick out biblical passages to emphasize according to their own agenda, and ignore - or even suppress - whatever doesn't.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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12-10-2011, 08:29 AM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
I agree with you entirely Peterkin but would like to add that religion also acts like a gap filler for people that look for something else to yell them how to live and what to do. This can in itself be dangerous as the bible is not a very good tool for morality as Christians tend to claim it to be.
These people who wish to be led would invariably find something else to do the job if religion weren't around but wouldn't it be nicer if they had one less poisonous choice?
Not to mention religion takes advantage of those people by design as well as those easily controlled by fear.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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12-10-2011, 10:18 AM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
Would it be nice if we were not such dangerous lunatics? Yup.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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12-10-2011, 12:05 PM
 
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
I am disappointed that we have not heard yet from our believers on this thread.

Theo?

Ranger?

Anyone else?

Don't you have a list of statements that you expect intelligent and honest atheists (lots of us in that category) to agree with you on?

Do you think that there is absolutely NO COMMON GROUND between believers and non-believers?

Just curious.

I personally do know several intelligent and honest believers who can find all kinds of things (most of my ten in the OP) to agree with me on and they still believe in their god.

None of those on this Forum?

It would be very disappointing.

Huh
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12-10-2011, 12:18 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
I think Theo went to heaven, I haven't seen him round these here parts in some time now, as for S. T. I hadn't even heard of him until like yesterday. Must not talk much, that or I am purposefully avoiding the serious topics covered on the forum... << >>
o 0

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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12-10-2011, 12:44 PM
 
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 12:18 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I think Theo went to heaven, I haven't seen him round these here parts in some time now, as for S. T. I hadn't even heard of him until like yesterday.

Theo tried to convert me a few times on the "Depression" thread the last 2 days and today he gave me an irresistible straight line on the "Why they believe" thread.

Theo was still arguing with Defacto on the "Question to S.T.Ranger" thread.

They are around, just have not got around telling us if it is hopeless to agree with them on anything.

I hope they find something! Confused
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12-10-2011, 12:54 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
I guess that means I've been purposefully avoiding any meaningful threads.

Well the answer to your question is obvious isn't it?

The common ground is that none of us believe in god. Atheists and theists alike. Theists just like to pretend because it's fun. Like when we all ate those mushrooms and then went into the forest to play mario brothers with swords for some reason. That was fun, until we heard that bear.

It's impossible for anyone to say anything is 100% anything even when physically witnessed. Don't care what anyone says I have my fingers in my eyes so I can't see what you reply. So really shouldn't we all agree that nothing is certain (certain meaning 100% guaranteed) No you're right even atheists will often never concede to that because they are almost as fundamental.

How about let's all agree to disagree? Start there. Work on the small stuff like Ice cream is lovely, grass is soft typically and summer is magnificent. No nitpicking allowed.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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12-10-2011, 01:25 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(11-10-2011 01:10 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Just having some half-serious fun with this.
I have answered as a Christian for you, though not one, but formally as and fully aware of the mindset.

1. There is no conclusive proof for either belief or non-belief – both are speculative based on personal inclination and experience.
There is absolute proof in the resurection of Jesus Christ

2. For non-believers, belief seems silly; for believers, non-belief seems barren
To consider the ministry of Jesus Christ silly is completely unacceptable.

3. Personal belief or non-belief is harmless unless it stops being personal
Your lack of acceptance of Jesus as your savoir is unacceptable. God punishes entire nations for their unbelief

4. Neither side has the right to aggressive proselytization
It is my mission to convert as many souls as possible to the teachings of Jesus Christ. I cannot accept your offer

5. Neither side has the right to force/pressure/intimidate the other to change their way of life solely based on belief or non-belief
God commands us to enforce his laws. If this means killing heretics then we obey completely. I cannot substitute man's law for God's law

6. Much harm and hurt may result from attempting 4. or 5. from either side
God did not ask us to consider harm or hurt. He simply commands us to obey his word. Harm or Hurt is a human observation.

7. Organized religion at the highest level usually becomes a power-structure, often contrary to the teaching of their religion
This is simply not true. Religion is man's expressed love for God and to speak against it is unacceptable.

8. Non-belief is usually unorganized and powerless
You are dangerous. Your beliefs, even just one person alone, threatens the imortal souls of all believers.

9. Logical contradictions within religions, and between competing religions, contribute to non-belief.
There are no contradictions with Christianity or the Bible. Only the word of God. Other religions are false religions and God will address them in His time.

10. Contradictions between dogma and action in many religious camps contribute to non-belief
Non-belief is the result of Satan's influence in the world. There are no contradictions in God's word.

The serious comment is that it is impossible to have common ground with a Christian or "other" true believer unless they are willing to give up their beliefs.
Answer me this, if you believed completely that you knew the god revealed truth of the universe how far would you go to meet a person who was just wrong on the biggest question one could ever ask? Would you comprimise god's truths? Would you rebel against your God for the sake of getting along with a mortal? It is difficult to understand the absolutist, but the first thing to remember is that they have revealed truth and you have human reason. Who do you think they think is wrong?
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12-10-2011, 01:59 PM
 
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 01:25 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The serious comment is that it is impossible to have common ground with a Christian or "other" true believer unless they are willing to give up their beliefs.

When T.S.Ranger and I was still talking to each other, he admitted that he had no problem accepting evolution (as the plan of his god).

Accepting the fact of evolution is one item of common ground.

Where you have one, you may have another....

Wait and see, maybe they will chime in on this here.
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