Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
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12-10-2011, 03:00 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
Considering ... theists and non-theists ...
I'm going to have to toss out the one philosophy I will commit to. It might also be the only idea any person of belief could also commit to. Aside from this thought, I think our philosophical paths diverge drastically.
However, on this point, we might find find common ground:

I am what I am.
~ Popeye/Jesus ~

Had to be said. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-10-2011, 03:29 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 01:59 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  When T.S.Ranger and I was still talking to each other, he admitted that he had no problem accepting evolution (as the plan of his god).

Accepting the fact of evolution is one item of common ground.

Where you have one, you may have another....

Wait and wee, maybe they will chime in on this here.

Did he actually change his mind on that issue during his conversation with you? There is a large proportion of believers who do believe in evolution via god. I think it's probably the largest proportion. But there are millions who do not accept it for a minute. Both camps are usually determined on their position before hand.

It is so strange to me how a belief system that is so convoluted can have so many who believe in it so absolutely with so many arbitrary outcomes that are so perfect and unchangeable... in so many different ways.... I lost my train of thought....

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12-10-2011, 03:40 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
If everyone followed those rules the world would be better and I would enjoy it more than it's current state; however you do have the one little problem of them telling their children to believe something that they can not possible know is true in the first place. Also, your method assumes religious people can be as rational as the list wishes, in a perfect world...

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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12-10-2011, 03:45 PM
 
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 03:29 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  Did he actually change his mind on that issue during his conversation with you? There is a large proportion of believers who do believe in evolution via god. I think it's probably the largest proportion. But there are millions who do not accept it for a minute. Both camps are usually determined on their position before hand.

No, he did not change his mind, he stated up front that he has no problem with evolution. I can't remember which thread the conversation took place but I can find it if I need to.

In my mind, only an idiot would deny the facts overwhelmingly supporting the theory of evolution.

For crying out loud , even several Popes accepted evolution as their god's plan from the start.

Rolleyes

ETA: I found the thread: "You are going to hell", page 6, Post #116
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12-10-2011, 06:08 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(29-09-2011 03:43 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  It should be easy to summarize what every intelligent and decent human being (believer or non-believer) ought to agree about regarding religion.

Please feel free to add your own.

The following are my own Ten Commandments (obeservations)

1. There is no conclusive proof for either belief or non-belief – both are speculative based on personal inclination and experience.

2. For non-believers, belief seems silly; for believers, non-belief seems barren

3. Personal belief or non-belief is harmless unless it stops being personal

4. Neither side has the right to aggressive proselytization

5. Neither side has the right to force/pressure/intimidate the other to change their way of life solely based on belief or non-belief

6. Much harm and hurt may result from attempting 4. or 5. from either side

7. Organized religion at the highest level usually becomes a power-structure, often contrary to the teaching of their religion

8. Non-belief is usually unorganized and powerless

9. Logical contradictions within religions, and between competing religions, contribute to non-belief.

10. Contradictions between dogma and action in many religious camps contribute to non-belief


Of course, I could have summarized all 10 into one:

"Live and Let Live!"


ETA: These are not all of my own convictions (I am a lot more prejudiced than that on the atheist side), I only listed those statements that I thought both parties ought to agree about, without tearing each other to pieces.

I would like to add commandment no 11...

that all parties make a sincere, rational attempt to discover truth. When truth comes to light, there are no arguments any more. I admit that one man's truth may be a little different to another's, yet we should all seriously commit to discovering the truth about nature and history.
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12-10-2011, 06:26 PM
 
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 06:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I would like to add commandment no 11...

that all parties make a sincere, rational attempt to discover truth.

Great addition, Mark! I sure would not consider anyone honest and intelligent who refused to agree to that.

Problem with believers is that they think they have a monopoly on TRUTH (as handed down to them in the bible), so they wouldn't think that truth needs discovery.

You need at least a minimum of doubt to strive for discovering the truth.

Without that, you are stuck with: "Credo quia absurdum" -- a Latin phrase, meaning: "I believe because it is absurd" (derived from a passage in Tertullian's "De Carne Christi" defending the tenets of orthodox Christianity).
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12-10-2011, 07:00 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
(12-10-2011 03:00 PM)kim Wrote:  However, on this point, we might find find common ground:

I am what I am.
~ Popeye/Jesus ~

Still enough of a trace of solipsism left in me Kim not to admit that outright and casually. I might be persuaded to go with "I am that I am", though.

(12-10-2011 06:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I would like to add commandment no 11...

that all parties make a sincere, rational attempt to discover truth. When truth comes to light, there are no arguments any more. I admit that one man's truth may be a little different to another's, yet we should all seriously commit to discovering the truth about nature and history.

Feels like a slippery slope to me, Mark. Truth and logic (and hence mathematics and science) are intrinsically limited and we've already scoped out and formalized those limitations. I am not willing to trade one obviously inconsistent and irrational superstition in favor of a rational yet incomplete one. I cannot recognize logic as divine anymore than any other religion's conception of the divine. But even though I can't admit it as a commandment, I do recognize it as current best practice, subject to change.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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13-10-2011, 12:25 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
Just a note...

I think there is definitely some common ground subject matter being found in the Philosophy/Is it OK..kids... thread.

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13-10-2011, 06:05 PM
RE: Common ground between intelligent and honest believers and atheists
I have no faith in the verb "to believe." This statement of the OP is apologetic, no? Honest and intelligent believers, like Trekkies? They're alright. Been to a convention myself. Like Christians? o.O

Live and let live as an atheist? Is this an American forum?Tongue

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