Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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01-09-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:04 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 08:53 AM)xear Wrote:  The world exists as an appearance to me. My awareness is not the only awareness so it exists as an appearance to others. If there were no others and no me [nothing alive] I can confidently say the world would not exist.

Do you dispute my assertion, there can be no moment or condition from which awareness is missing. Its absence means their absence.

I dispute that entire claim. I accept an objective reality exists and that my perception of it is reasonably accurate and that perception is unnecessary for it to exist. I compare my perceptions with those of others and they agree to a high degree of correlation. I can perceive something, then look away and ask another to describe what they perceive and it matches. I can leave a room and come back later and objects remain as I remember perceiving them before.

Object permanence

You say you are not a solipsist but you sound like you have some very similar views.

I think we have different definitions of "exist."

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is present did it make a sound?

I would say no because sound indicates both an emitter [sound waves] and a receptor [ears]. That is to say sound needs both. Appearances are no different.
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01-09-2016, 09:28 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Hello! Big Grin

Welcome to the forum. Smile

(01-09-2016 09:21 AM)xear Wrote:  I think we have different definitions of "exist."

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is present did it make a sound?

I would say no because sound indicates both an emitter [sound waves] and a receptor [ears]. That is to say sound needs both. Appearances are no different.

Wait... in your above example...

A) Is the example a correct definition of reality? (As in 'Trees', 'Forest', 'Air', 'Sound etc?)

1) Does the tree exist?

2) Does the air around the tree exist?

3) Does the tree fall?

Consider
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01-09-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:04 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 08:53 AM)xear Wrote:  The world exists as an appearance to me. My awareness is not the only awareness so it exists as an appearance to others. If there were no others and no me [nothing alive] I can confidently say the world would not exist.

Do you dispute my assertion, there can be no moment or condition from which awareness is missing. Its absence means their absence.

I dispute that entire claim. I accept an objective reality exists and that my perception of it is reasonably accurate and that perception is unnecessary for it to exist. I compare my perceptions with those of others and they agree to a high degree of correlation. I can perceive something, then look away and ask another to describe what they perceive and it matches. I can leave a room and come back later and objects remain as I remember perceiving them before.

Object permanence

You say you are not a solipsist but you sound like you have some very similar views.

Solipsism sounds delusional. If I was the only real person, then it wouldn't matter what I did to others since they aren't real anyway. I consider others very real.
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01-09-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:30 AM)xear Wrote:  Solipsism sounds delusional. If I was the only real person, then it wouldn't matter what I did to others since they aren't real anyway. I consider others very real.

*Raises hand*

So, how do/might you know others are real?

Consider
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01-09-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:40 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 09:30 AM)xear Wrote:  Solipsism sounds delusional. If I was the only real person, then it wouldn't matter what I did to others since they aren't real anyway. I consider others very real.

*Raises hand*

So, how do/might you know others are real?

Consider

ummm.... because they show up at my door and ask for rent money?
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01-09-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:28 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello! Big Grin

Welcome to the forum. Smile

(01-09-2016 09:21 AM)xear Wrote:  I think we have different definitions of "exist."

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is present did it make a sound?

I would say no because sound indicates both an emitter [sound waves] and a receptor [ears]. That is to say sound needs both. Appearances are no different.

Wait... in your above example...

A) Is the example a correct definition of reality? (As in 'Trees', 'Forest', 'Air', 'Sound etc?)

1) Does the tree exist?
Only if there is an awareness present. In the case of a tree, it is alive, has awareness so it unlike a glass it needs no one else.

2) Does the air around the tree exist?
Only if there is an awareness present.

3) Does the tree fall?
Only if there is an awareness present.

Consider


1) Does the tree exist?
Only if there is an awareness present. In the case of a tree, it is alive, has awareness so it unlike a glass it needs no one else.

2) Does the air around the tree exist?
Only if there is an awareness present.

3) Does the tree fall?
Only if there is an awareness present.
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01-09-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 10:00 AM)xear Wrote:  1) Does the tree exist?

Only if there is an awareness present. In the case of a tree, it is alive, has awareness so it unlike a glass it needs no one else.

2) Does the air around the tree exist?

Only if there is an awareness present.

3) Does the tree fall?

Only if there is an awareness present.

Consider

So.. when you go to sleep... does the air still exist?

How does the tree know about anything? Being alive does not equal being aware?

How do rocks fall off mountains if neither the mountain.. or the rock is aware?
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01-09-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
So.. when you go to sleep... does the air still exist?
Yes.

How does the tree know about anything? Being alive does not equal being aware?
It feels.

How do rocks fall off mountains if neither the mountain.. or the rock is aware?
Awareness is necessary to find out. Without awareness who is to say it happened? An event can't really be said to have happened until awareness shows up in some form.

Kind of gettting into linguistics though and not that interesting.

My real question for anyone on this forum:
Can my existence, my being, enter into non-existence with the death of my body?

If that is how it works then all life will eventually empty out into non-existence. And since nothing can emerge from non-existence [which has no properties] it's all a one way trip.
1. Why hasn't this one way trip been completed by now? Does the Universe need more time?
2. If all life disappears into non-existence, where does it go? Because existence is, and non-existence cannot contain anything... where does it go?
Perhaps it's like adding 1 + 0 = 1. That is to say existence plus non-existence still equals existence. There is no where else for it to go.


.
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01-09-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  Kind of getting into linguistics though and not that interesting.

My real question for anyone on this forum:

Can my existence, my being, enter into non-existence with the death of my body?

I would say, given what we know of physics, biology etc the the answer is "No".

Thumbsup

(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  If that is how it works then all life will eventually empty out into non-existence.

Again 'Life' does not always have 'awareness'.

Also.. there is much that does not have life... and yet it exists....

Does the opposite side of the Moon exist? We cannot experience it.

Do things exist 'before' we experience them?

Do other planets exist before we find'/'experience' them?

(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  And since nothing can emerge from non-existence [which has no properties] it's all a one way trip.

This is not completely true.

Hawking radiation is effectively quantum particles arising spontaneously from the vacuum of space around black holes...

Hence there, there is nothing to experience them coming into existence...

Consider

(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  1. Why hasn't this one way trip been completed by now? Does the Universe need more time?

I don't understand this comment. Sad

(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  2. If all life disappears into non-existence, where does it go?

Um, by one definition "Life' 'goes' into 'death' The awareness goes away.. the substance does not.

Here's another counter question. After a tree has fallen in a forest. Does it cease to exist? Does it vanish or... what?

(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  Because existence is, and non-existence cannot contain anything... where does it go?

You kind of have to demonstrate that 'Existence' goes away. 'Awareness' as people have pointed out to you, is not 'Existence'.

(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  Perhaps it's like adding 1 + 0 = 1. That is to say existence plus non-existence still equals existence. There is no where else for it to go.

I don't understand this comment. Sad
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01-09-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:30 AM)xear Wrote:  Solipsism sounds delusional. If I was the only real person, then it wouldn't matter what I did to others since they aren't real anyway. I consider others very real.

It is delusional but not for the reason you think. It is a bridge too far. I would have to admit my own existence and I can't find anything other than pragmatic reasons to do so.

#sigh
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