Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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01-09-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:21 AM)xear Wrote:  I think we have different definitions of "exist."

I already noted that and explained what I meant by existence. I'm still trying to figure out what you mean.

Quote:If a tree falls in the forest and no one is present did it make a sound?

I would say no because sound indicates both an emitter [sound waves] and a receptor [ears]. That is to say sound needs both. Appearances are no different.

When the tree falls there are vibrations in the air, the earth, and the surrounding plants. If you define sound as the interception and interpretation of those vibrations then there is no sound but that's a very limited definition in my opinion. I don't see any point in requiring that sound be heard to be called sound.

In the same way that those vibrations exist, I accept that objects exist and have permanence whether they are being perceived or not. I see no justification for your claim that perception or awareness is required.

(01-09-2016 10:00 AM)xear Wrote:  1) Does the tree exist?
Only if there is an awareness present. In the case of a tree, it is alive, has awareness so it unlike a glass it needs no one else.

2) Does the air around the tree exist?
Only if there is an awareness present.

3) Does the tree fall?
Only if there is an awareness present.

Sorry, you;d have to provide a way for me to test that or some kind of evidence that it is the case. All my experience interacting with reality and with others and their reports of how they interact with reality leads me to conclude the opposite. The tree exists, the air exists, the tree falls, and there is sound whether there is anything there to be aware of the event or not.

By the way, saying that trees have "awareness" is a real stretch. They react to stimuli but so does the glass. The term awareness implies a lot more than that.

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01-09-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 09:30 AM)xear Wrote:  Solipsism sounds delusional. If I was the only real person, then it wouldn't matter what I did to others since they aren't real anyway. I consider others very real.

You allow for multiple "awarenesses" but deny an objective reality. That isn't exactly solipsism but sounds every bit as delusional to me.

(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  How does the tree know about anything? Being alive does not equal being aware?
It feels.

In what way does a tree "feel"? How can you demonstrate that claim?

Quote:How do rocks fall off mountains if neither the mountain.. or the rock is aware?
Awareness is necessary to find out. Without awareness who is to say it happened? An event can't really be said to have happened until awareness shows up in some form.

Not knowing that an event has happened or the current state of things does not mean that the event has not happened.

Quote:Kind of gettting into linguistics though and not that interesting.

The problem is that you seem to have very unconventional definitions and that is making communication difficult.

Quote:My real question for anyone on this forum:
Can my existence, my being, enter into non-existence with the death of my body?

Your awareness will cease to exist when your brain dies. There will no longer be a "you" to be aware of anything since "you" will no longer exist. Others who knew you will be aware of the change.

Quote:If that is how it works then all life will eventually empty out into non-existence. And since nothing can emerge from non-existence [which has no properties] it's all a one way trip.

Lawrence Krauss, and apparently scientists studying quantum mechanics, disagree with you.

Quote:1. Why hasn't this one way trip been completed by now? Does the Universe need more time?

If it had completed you wouldn't be here to ask.

Quote:2. If all life disappears into non-existence, where does it go? Because existence is, and non-existence cannot contain anything... where does it go?
Perhaps it's like adding 1 + 0 = 1. That is to say existence plus non-existence still equals existence. There is no where else for it to go.

Where does the brick wall go when you knock it down? Where does the flame go when you blow out the candle?

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01-09-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 10:34 AM)xear Wrote:  My real question for anyone on this forum:
Can my existence, my being, enter into non-existence with the death of my body?

I think you're confusing existence with consciousness.
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01-09-2016, 02:15 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
"Your awareness will cease to exist when your brain dies. There will no longer be a "you" to be aware of anything since "you" will no longer exist. Others who knew you will be aware of the change."

How do you know this?

There are two types of "nothing." There are real nothings and unreal nothings. A vacuum is a real nothing. It exists. Possibly life can emerge from it.

"Nothing," written on Santa's notebook is an unreal nothing. It doesn't exist. It's non-existent.

Possibly existence can go into a real nothing and emerge out of a real nothing. A real nothing exists.

Existence cannot emerge out of an unreal nothing [non-existence] since an unreal nothing does not exist, unlike a real nothing.
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01-09-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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01-09-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 02:15 PM)xear Wrote:  "Your awareness will cease to exist when your brain dies. There will no longer be a "you" to be aware of anything since "you" will no longer exist. Others who knew you will be aware of the change."

How do you know this?

I do not claim to know it. It is what I believe based on my experiences with others who have died and what I've read about how brains work. If you think something else happens please present evidence to support your position.

Quote:There are two types of "nothing." There are real nothings and unreal nothings. A vacuum is a real nothing. It exists. Possibly life can emerge from it.

"Nothing," written on Santa's notebook is an unreal nothing. It doesn't exist. It's non-existent.

Possibly existence can go into a real nothing and emerge out of a real nothing. A real nothing exists.

Existence cannot emerge out of an unreal nothing [non-existence] since an unreal nothing does not exist, unlike a real nothing.

I'll reverse your question: How do you know this? When have you examined what you call a "real nothing"?

You might want to look into Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing"... physicists and cosmologists seem to disagree with you and if you are qualified to disagree with them then you should be writing scientific papers about it instead of posting unsubstantiated claims on an atheist forum.

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01-09-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 02:26 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 02:15 PM)xear Wrote:  "Your awareness will cease to exist when your brain dies. There will no longer be a "you" to be aware of anything since "you" will no longer exist. Others who knew you will be aware of the change."

How do you know this?

I do not claim to know it. It is what I believe based on my experiences with others who have died and what I've read about how brains work. If you think something else happens please present evidence to support your position.

Neither of us have evidence or ever could have evidence of this. It is a faith thing.

Quote:There are two types of "nothing." There are real nothings and unreal nothings. A vacuum is a real nothing. It exists. Possibly life can emerge from it.

"Nothing," written on Santa's notebook is an unreal nothing. It doesn't exist. It's non-existent.

Possibly existence can go into a real nothing and emerge out of a real nothing. A real nothing exists.

Existence cannot emerge out of an unreal nothing [non-existence] since an unreal nothing does not exist, unlike a real nothing.

I'll reverse your question: How do you know this? When have you examined what you call a "real nothing"?

Simple logic. If you add all of the positive matter in the Universe and all of the anti-matter in the Universe it may equal nothing. From that nothing ... things can emerge, at least that would sound reasonable.

You might want to look into Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing"... physicists and cosmologists seem to disagree with you and if you are qualified to disagree with them then you should be writing scientific papers about it instead of posting unsubstantiated claims on an atheist forum.

"I do not claim to know it. It is what I believe based on my experiences with others who have died and what I've read about how brains work. If you think something else happens please present evidence to support your position."

Neither of us have evidence or ever could have evidence of this. It is a faith thing.

I'll reverse your question: How do you know this? When have you examined what you call a "real nothing"?

Simple logic. If you add all of the positive matter in the Universe and all of the anti-matter in the Universe it may equal nothing. From that nothing ... things can emerge, at least that would sound reasonable.

I never heard of him or his book.
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01-09-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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01-09-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 08:05 AM)xear Wrote:  I don't think solipsist. Here's what I seem to believe at this moment:

I can say, I exist. The fact that I said it proves it.

Using your own logic, you don't exist until someone else hears you say that.

(01-09-2016 08:05 AM)xear Wrote:  I can also say a world exists. I can't prove that but it appears so.

That's why repeatable, falsifiable evidence is an important aspect of verifying reality.

(01-09-2016 08:05 AM)xear Wrote:  I can say the world runs by a power beyond my control.
And I can say it's powerful invisible unicorns, which is a pretty useless statement without verifiable, falsifiable, repeatable evidence.

(01-09-2016 08:05 AM)xear Wrote:  I can say when I fight with the world I am miserable. When I allow it to be as it is, I am happy.

That sounds like a Buddhist principle, so which flavor of religion are you?

BTW-Whichever flavor you choose will be loaded with assumptions with no supporting evidence.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-09-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
I'll guess I'll post this again.


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