Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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01-09-2016, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2016 04:26 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 02:47 PM)xear Wrote:  When have you examined what you call a "real nothing"?

What time is it? Every damn day I stare into the void. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee. If you haven't seriously considered not being, how can you justify being?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-09-2016, 04:42 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 04:20 PM)pablo Wrote:  I'll guess I'll post this again.



I don't regard this man as a very smart atheist. In this clip he seems unable to distinguish "mental faculties," with "consciousness."

Also he says science may discover consciousness can exist without the body and goes on to say there is very good evidence that the "mind" cannot exist without a body. Strawman argument. Who is talking about a mind? Not me, I've been talking about existence. We can't see existence while it is here in the body, so why could we see it in an afterlife?

Still the question is... if existence empties out into non-existence, why hasn't it done so by now? Not enough time? Is that how you see the future of the Universe ... all existence emptying out into non-existence and then a forever future of non-existence?



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01-09-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 04:42 PM)xear Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 04:20 PM)pablo Wrote:  I'll guess I'll post this again.



I don't regard this man as a very smart atheist. In this clip he seems unable to distinguish "mental faculties," with "consciousness."

Also he says science may discover consciousness can exist without the body and goes on to say there is very good evidence that the "mind" cannot exist without a body. Strawman argument. Who is talking about a mind? Not me, I've been talking about existence. We can't see existence while it is here in the body, so why could we see it in an afterlife?

Still the question is... if existence empties out into non-existence, why hasn't it done so by now? Not enough time? Is that how you see the future of the Universe ... all existence emptying out into non-existence and then a forever future of non-existence?



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Sam Harris is a neuroscientist, he has clearly been able to explain how the mind (consciousness) has not been proven to exist without the brain, and how brain damage effects conscious brain function.

You, on the other hand, still don't seem to be able to distinguish between existence and consciousness. You keep using the word 'existence' as if it means the same thing as consciousness.
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01-09-2016, 05:20 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Is any of this crap going to be of any use when I go to pay my taxes?

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01-09-2016, 05:25 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Quote:"You, on the other hand, still don't seem to be able to distinguish between existence and consciousness. You keep using the word 'existence' as if it means the same thing as consciousness."


Maybe that's our problem. From Wikipedia:
"Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness. It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, ..."

I was using "existence, awareness, life, consciousness, being," as the same thing. None of them have anything to do with mind or mental faculties.

How do you distinguish existence from consciousness?


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01-09-2016, 05:33 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 02:47 PM)xear Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 02:26 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I do not claim to know it. It is what I believe based on my experiences with others who have died and what I've read about how brains work. If you think something else happens please present evidence to support your position.

Neither of us have evidence or ever could have evidence of this. It is a faith thing.

Read the part I put i bold above again. I base my beliefs on many examples of people and animals that died and on what I understand of how brains function. That is all evidence and it all points to our consciousness being a product of the brain and ceasing to exist when the brain dies. There is no faith involved on my side and if you had any evidence at all for your claims I would consider them.

As it stands I am completely justified in dismissing your claims as unfounded.

(01-09-2016 04:42 PM)xear Wrote:  I don't regard this man as a very smart atheist. In this clip he seems unable to distinguish "mental faculties," with "consciousness."

What distinction do you make between them?

Quote:Also he says science may discover consciousness can exist without the body and goes on to say there is very good evidence that the "mind" cannot exist without a body. Strawman argument. Who is talking about a mind? Not me, I've been talking about existence. We can't see existence while it is here in the body, so why could we see it in an afterlife?

I thought I had figured out what you mean by "existence" but apparently not. You need to define the term since it doesn't seem to mean the same thing to you that it does to others.

Quote:Still the question is... if existence empties out into non-existence, why hasn't it done so by now? Not enough time? Is that how you see the future of the Universe ... all existence emptying out into non-existence and then a forever future of non-existence?

"empties out into non-existence" is a meaningless phrase as far as I'm concerned. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Please start by defining "existence" as you mean it.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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01-09-2016, 05:43 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 05:25 PM)xear Wrote:  
Quote:"You, on the other hand, still don't seem to be able to distinguish between existence and consciousness. You keep using the word 'existence' as if it means the same thing as consciousness."


Maybe that's our problem. From Wikipedia:
"Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness. It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, ..."

I was using "existence, awareness, life, consciousness, being," as the same thing. None of them have anything to do with mind or mental faculties.

How do you distinguish existence from consciousness?


.

A boulder exists, yet it is not conscious, or aware.
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01-09-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 05:25 PM)xear Wrote:  I was using "existence, awareness, life, consciousness, being," as the same thing.

Which I find incredibly confusing because I've never heard "existence" used that way.

Quote: None of them have anything to do with mind or mental faculties.

How do you have awareness or consciousness without a mind? How can you have a mind without mental faculties? They seem pretty inter-related to me.

Quote:How do you distinguish existence from consciousness?

Something has existence if it is actually a part of reality. Rocks exist. Glasses exist. Trees exist. People exist. Plants and animals exist. Santa Claus does not exist. The concept of Santa Claus does exist. Consciousness is an attribute that some things that exist have in addition to the fact that they exist. Animals have varying degrees of consciousness; rocks have none.

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01-09-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 05:47 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 05:25 PM)xear Wrote:  I was using "existence, awareness, life, consciousness, being," as the same thing.

Which I find incredibly confusing because I've never heard "existence" used that way.

Quote: None of them have anything to do with mind or mental faculties.

How do you have awareness or consciousness without a mind? How can you have a mind without mental faculties? They seem pretty inter-related to me.

Quote:How do you distinguish existence from consciousness?

Something has existence if it is actually a part of reality. Rocks exist. Glasses exist. Trees exist. People exist. Plants and animals exist. Santa Claus does not exist. The concept of Santa Claus does exist. Consciousness is an attribute that some things that exist have in addition to the fact that they exist. Animals have varying degrees of consciousness; rocks have none.




Thanks for that explanation. Those sound like great definitions.

How would you put plants and single cell amoebas. Neither of them have minds but both have varying degrees of awareness?


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01-09-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(01-09-2016 06:07 PM)xear Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 05:47 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Which I find incredibly confusing because I've never heard "existence" used that way.


How do you have awareness or consciousness without a mind? How can you have a mind without mental faculties? They seem pretty inter-related to me.


Something has existence if it is actually a part of reality. Rocks exist. Glasses exist. Trees exist. People exist. Plants and animals exist. Santa Claus does not exist. The concept of Santa Claus does exist. Consciousness is an attribute that some things that exist have in addition to the fact that they exist. Animals have varying degrees of consciousness; rocks have none.




Thanks for that explanation. Those sound like great definitions.

How would you put plants and single cell amoebas. Neither of them have minds but both have varying degrees of awareness?


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Some single-celled organisms have showed signs of "intelligence", but it is not fully understood.

If science does find out where in the cell this comes from, will it still have this "intelligence" if the source is damaged?
These single cells still need a physical being to have whatever awareness they have.
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