Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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02-09-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(02-09-2016 05:42 AM)xear Wrote:  There are two possibilities.

1.We know we exist. We reason existence always is. [Occam's razor]

2. We know we exist. We conjecture that our existence pops out of non-existence for no discernable reason and pops back into non-existence at death.

[This explanation leaves a lot of loose threads and difficult to explain phenomenon, not the least of which is, how does non-being, non-existence which has no properties, give rise to being?]



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False (and silly) dichotomy.

No living thing 'pops into existence'. Living things develop.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-09-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Quote:False (and silly) dichotomy.

No living thing 'pops into existence'. Living things develop.

Living things develop... as in it's almost alive, nearly alive, partly alive.... now living?




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02-09-2016, 07:44 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(02-09-2016 07:28 AM)xear Wrote:  
Quote:False (and silly) dichotomy.

No living thing 'pops into existence'. Living things develop.

Living things develop... as in it's almost alive, nearly alive, partly alive.... now living?




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I believe you are now conflating biogenesis and development.

Is a virus alive? Is it an organism?
Is a gamete alive? Is it an organism?
Is a zygote alive? Is it an organism?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-09-2016, 07:46 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(02-09-2016 07:01 AM)xear Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 06:10 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Hard to say since you won't explain what you mean by 'mental faculties' or 'awareness'. With most people there is sufficient overlap in the way they use words to make communication possible. With you it grows increasingly difficult because it has become apparent that you have unique definitions of fairly common words... is English a second language? If we can't establish some common ground then whatever point you are trying to make will be forever lost.

Mental faculties: one of the inherent cognitive or perceptual powers of the mind.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mental+faculty

Cognition: Quite simply, cognition refers to thinking.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/cognition

A blade of grass cannot think, cannot imagine, has no mental powers, no brain, no mental memory. A neurosurgeon cannot do anything with a blade of grass because it lacks mental faculties. It does have life. It lives, it dies. Does it have an afterlife? Whether it does or not has nothing to do with mental faculties whatever the answer.



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Then it does not have awareness, either. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-09-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(02-09-2016 07:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 07:01 AM)xear Wrote:  Mental faculties: one of the inherent cognitive or perceptual powers of the mind.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mental+faculty

Cognition: Quite simply, cognition refers to thinking.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/cognition

A blade of grass cannot think, cannot imagine, has no mental powers, no brain, no mental memory. A neurosurgeon cannot do anything with a blade of grass because it lacks mental faculties. It does have life. It lives, it dies. Does it have an afterlife? Whether it does or not has nothing to do with mental faculties whatever the answer.



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Then it does not have awareness, either. Drinking Beverage


Plants are often thought of as inanimate objects, not living beings. In the past, those who have suggested that plants have senses, thoughts, and feelings have been labeled as hippies, tree-huggers, and crazies. But new science is now revealing that plants are very aware and even have ways of communicating.

https://www.pachamama.org/blog/do-plants...sciousness




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02-09-2016, 08:54 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(02-09-2016 08:45 AM)xear Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 07:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then it does not have awareness, either. Drinking Beverage


Plants are often thought of as inanimate objects, not living beings. In the past, those who have suggested that plants have senses, thoughts, and feelings have been labeled as hippies, tree-huggers, and crazies. But new science is now revealing that plants are very aware and even have ways of communicating.

https://www.pachamama.org/blog/do-plants...sciousness

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So in a previous post you said this:

(02-09-2016 08:45 AM)xear Wrote:  If you think a plant has mental faculties then I guess you have a different definition of mental faculties than I do.

Now are you asserting a plant is conscious?

So what does any of this have to do with consciousness not depending upon a physical medium to support it?

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02-09-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(02-09-2016 07:01 AM)xear Wrote:  Mental faculties: one of the inherent cognitive or perceptual powers of the mind.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mental+faculty

Cognition: Quite simply, cognition refers to thinking.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/cognition

A blade of grass cannot think, cannot imagine, has no mental powers, no brain, no mental memory. A neurosurgeon cannot do anything with a blade of grass because it lacks mental faculties. It does have life. It lives, it dies. Does it have an afterlife? Whether it does or not has nothing to do with mental faculties whatever the answer.

Now you seem to have moved from "awareness" to "cognition"... are they they same thing to you?

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02-09-2016, 08:59 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(02-09-2016 08:45 AM)xear Wrote:  
(02-09-2016 07:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then it does not have awareness, either. Drinking Beverage


Plants are often thought of as inanimate objects, not living beings. In the past, those who have suggested that plants have senses, thoughts, and feelings have been labeled as hippies, tree-huggers, and crazies. But new science is now revealing that plants are very aware and even have ways of communicating.

https://www.pachamama.org/blog/do-plants...sciousness




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That site is not about science - it's new age crap. Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-09-2016, 10:11 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Now you seem to have moved from "awareness" to "cognition"... are they they same thing to you?

No they are not the same thing. That is my point. A plant is aware. It does not think.

Why is this important? Well Sam Harris was conflating afterlife awareness with mental faculties. Living beings can be aware without mental faculties as in the case of plants, jellyfish, amoebas etc. They live, have awareness, but do not think.




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02-09-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
"Consciousness develops as an organism grows in complexity and ends when that organism dies."

I don't see it that way. Here's a quote from David Darling:

"Don’t let the cosmologists try to kid you on this one. They have not got a
clue either—despite the fact that they are doing a pretty good job of
convincing themselves and others that this is really not a problem. “In the
beginning,” they will say, “there was nothing—no time, space, matter or
energy. Then there was a quantum fluctuation from which . . . ” Whoa! Stop right
there. You see what I mean? First there is nothing, then there is something. And
the cosmologists try to bridge the two with a quantum flutter, a tremor of
uncertainty that sparks it all off. Then they are away and before you know it,
they have pulled a hundred billion galaxies out of their quantum hats.

.....No, I’m sorry, I may not have been born in Yorkshire but I’m a firm believer
that you cannot get owt for nowt. Not a Universe from a nothing-verse, nor
consciousness from a thinking brain. I suspect that mainstream science may go on
for a few more years before it bumps so hard against these problems that it is
forced to recognise that something is wrong. And then? Let me guess: if you
cannot get something for nothing then that must mean there has always been
something. Hmmm. And if the brain doesn’t produce consciousness . . . well, no,
that is just too crazy isn’t it?"-- David Darling

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1...m-nothing/




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