Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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13-02-2013, 09:05 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(13-02-2013 08:59 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You have a free will to be receptive or condemning, open or closed to God.
You do realize that the vast majority of non-believers on this forum used to be religious, right? Consider
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13-02-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(13-02-2013 08:59 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  did he make you sarcastic this morning, too?
Why do you assume it is just this morning? And my sarcasm has nothing to do with your non-existent mythological character, that's all me.

And I mock because your particular fairy tale is eminently mockable. The alternative is to weep for all the evil it's been causing in the world for millennia. And I don't feel like crying just now.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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13-02-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(13-02-2013 08:16 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, let me explain if I may.
Say I have a stele or rock with some awesome inscriptions on them that verify what I'm saying, since donated to a museum. I cannot send you the stele via e-mail but I can tell you where to browse to photos on the web or send you to a museum to see it.
I know you can get information from Jesus but I cannot "make" Jesus send you the evidence as that violates principles of free will. As I wrote, I can send you to the source for evidence.
And I recommend when you ask God for evidence you also give Him a time constraint. He will answer all but some less promptly. Wink
1) If I have to wait for God's reply, can we at least agree that until God gets back to me with all the evidence, you do not actually have any? If you cannot provide other more immediate sources for your information then I'm sure you will agree I have absolutely no reason to believe you until such a time your deity appears to me and proves his (and your) claims irrefutably.

Though why does it take him so long I wonder, I thought he was supposed to be omnipotent? Are you saying he is unable to multitask?

You could try asking Jesus nicely to send me the evidence, maybe that will do it.

2) You still haven't answered my other question, ie Why should I accept God's word as evidence? For example, how would I know he wasn't simply lying to me even if he answered me?
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13-02-2013, 09:55 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Quote:You do realize that the vast majority of non-believers on this forum used to be religious, right?
Of course. Elsewhere on another thread, however, I pointed out that without exception, all the deconversion testimonies I heard were of people in really crappy "churches", typically where questioning faith was shut down abruptly--as opposed to the fact that God invites questions and questioners of all kinds.
Further, most deconversion testimonies are laden with compulsive behaviors and guilt--guilt goes to the cross.
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13-02-2013, 09:58 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Quote:1) If I have to wait for God's reply, can we at least agree that until God gets back to me with all the evidence, you do not actually have any? If you cannot provide other more immediate sources for your information then I'm sure you will agree I have absolutely no reason to believe you until such a time your deity appears to me and proves his (and your) claims irrefutably.

Though why does it take him so long I wonder, I thought he was supposed to be omnipotent? Are you saying he is unable to multitask?

You could try asking Jesus nicely to send me the evidence, maybe that will do it.

2) You still haven't answered my other question, ie Why should I accept God's word as evidence? For example, how would I know he wasn't simply lying to me even if he answered me?
For 1) of course I pray for you. But you still have free will.
For 2) You are begging the question. I didn't say "You might get the evidence you seek." You WILL get the INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence you seek. But I must say, I've rarely heard a conversion testimony like the one you're framing:
"God, you don't exist. So please if you do exist, send me evidence that you're aren't a lying deceiver."
What IS appropriate is a skeptic's prayer like this:
"God, if you do exist--please send me evidence beyond the mere anecdotal, beyond the coincidental. If you really will reveal yourself to me so I know it was you and not my own musings--I will trust you for salvation."
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13-02-2013, 10:02 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(13-02-2013 09:55 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Of course. Elsewhere on another thread, however, I pointed out that without exception, all the deconversion testimonies I heard were of people in really crappy "churches", typically where questioning faith was shut down abruptly--as opposed to the fact that God invites questions and questioners of all kinds.
Further, most deconversion testimonies are laden with compulsive behaviors and guilt--guilt goes to the cross.
How is that relevant to what I said?
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13-02-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(13-02-2013 10:02 AM)Vosur Wrote:  How is that relevant to what I said?
Relevant? You're asking about relevance? At this point I'd be content with some semblance of coherence.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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13-02-2013, 10:26 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(13-02-2013 09:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "God, if you do exist--please send me evidence beyond the mere anecdotal, beyond the coincidental. If you really will reveal yourself to me so I know it was you and not my own musings--I will trust you for salvation."

Salvation from what? Hell? There is no evidence of hell or of existence beyond death.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-02-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(13-02-2013 09:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:1) If I have to wait for God's reply, can we at least agree that until God gets back to me with all the evidence, you do not actually have any? If you cannot provide other more immediate sources for your information then I'm sure you will agree I have absolutely no reason to believe you until such a time your deity appears to me and proves his (and your) claims irrefutably.

Though why does it take him so long I wonder, I thought he was supposed to be omnipotent? Are you saying he is unable to multitask?

You could try asking Jesus nicely to send me the evidence, maybe that will do it.

2) You still haven't answered my other question, ie Why should I accept God's word as evidence? For example, how would I know he wasn't simply lying to me even if he answered me?
For 1) of course I pray for you. But you still have free will.
For 2) You are begging the question. I didn't say "You might get the evidence you seek." You WILL get the INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence you seek. But I must say, I've rarely heard a conversion testimony like the one you're framing:
"God, you don't exist. So please if you do exist, send me evidence that you're aren't a lying deceiver."
What IS appropriate is a skeptic's prayer like this:
"God, if you do exist--please send me evidence beyond the mere anecdotal, beyond the coincidental. If you really will reveal yourself to me so I know it was you and not my own musings--I will trust you for salvation."
1) You haven't answered my question. Can we agree that until God appears to me and provides this evidence, you have no evidence to back up your claims and none of us should believe anything you say?

2) Well obviously I would ask for more than pure anecdotal evidence from him. But I'm not going to simper to him.

Tell you what though, you claim he can provide this evidence - obviously then he provided evidence for you or you wouldn't make such a claim (since that would be dishonest of you, and you wouldn't be dishonest right?). Since you have seen this evidence, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what it was so that we don't have to wait around for the next few thousand years?
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13-02-2013, 12:00 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Which verse was it that said one shouldn't test their christian deity? Consider

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