Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
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14-02-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(14-02-2013 03:20 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  I checked my PM box. Sadly I'm missing a few things on the list:

•goat

•jar of blood



Thankfully I'm fully stocked when it comes to candles (don't worry PJ, it's not for you. I'm painting a goat by candle light and the specific tincture of paint is made by hand and one of the ingredients is deer blood)!
Shush, precious, you'll give it all away.

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(You're welcome, Tartarus)

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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06-03-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(16-05-2012 07:55 AM)DeistPaladin Wrote:  On "Alexa", when the tab "top sites" is sorted "by catagory", "religion" is one of the choices.....and of course, beneath "religion" lies atheist.
We need to get atheist moved out from underneath "religion" pronto....thos I have no idea how that would be done.


Thanks so much for putting this up.

I think it's fair to say that this list is as good as it gets as far as "evidence" the apologists offer to justify their beliefs. There are some arguments that are specific to Christianity, such as the trilemma or the suffering martyrs (a.k.a. "would they die for a lie?"), but what they all universally have in common is that they're all attempts at logical arguments. There's never any hard evidence or demonstrations, the likes of which one reads about in the Bible whenever a character in it expresses doubts.

What's so interesting to me about a list like this is what it does not and can not include, much to the chagrin of the apologists:

  • Apologists have no storehouse of magical artifacts, like Paul's handkerchief that could heal the sick (see Acts ).
  • They are unable to work any Holy Spirit powers to cast out demons or speak in foreign languages (see Mark 16 ). Unfortunately, some Christians in my state have tried to put Mark 16:18 into practice and have died from it (handling snakes is now illegal in my state because it was such a problem).
  • Angels or Yahweh don't seem to come down to earth and speak to people like they apparently used to according to the Bible (too many examples to mention, but here's a famous one ). Atheists and other skeptics can safely express doubts about things like whether or not Moses was a prophet without being smote (see this example ).
All of the above bullet points contain compelling evidence or demonstrations that would meet the burden of proof. All of them have Biblical justification of what we should expect to see if the Bible represented how the universe actually operates. All of them are examples of what we would experience if we were characters in the Bible expressing the same doubts that we do in real life. Apologists can't supply any such proofs.

To underscore why this is such a problem for them, try to imagine re-working a scene from a different work of fiction: Star Wars. Everyone on this forum probably remembers the scene when the skeptical admiral scoffs at Darth Vader's religious beliefs. Darth Vader then accepted the burden of proof and provided a compelling, if violent, demonstration. What he did couldn't be mistaken for natural occurrence or coincidence. If such a thing happened in real life, no atheist would remain unconvinced.

Now try to imagine that instead Darth Vader responded with "Well, you know the ontological thing-and-a-thing with the teleological blah blah blah transcendental yatta yatta with the (latin phrases thrown in for good measure here) and..." I'm sure someone could polish up that hypothetical script re-write but it wouldn't be any more convincing to a skeptical imperial admiral, certainly not in comparison to the original version.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying logical arguments (or attempts at logical arguments in the case of the list above) can't be used as proof of something but if the Bible was true and reflected the nature of the universe, we should expect to see much more tangible demonstrations and evidence.
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06-03-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
Quote:They are unable to work any Holy Spirit powers to cast out demons or speak in foreign languages.
I've witnessed both but that's not my empirical proof for God's existence.
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07-03-2013, 07:44 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(06-03-2013 02:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:They are unable to work any Holy Spirit powers to cast out demons or speak in foreign languages.
I've witnessed both but that's not my empirical proof for God's existence.
OK....so what IS your "empirical" proof for god's existence?

[/quote]

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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07-03-2013, 07:48 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
See Run The Gauntlet Thread. Wink
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07-03-2013, 07:55 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(08-06-2012 07:37 PM)AmishLatinJew Wrote:  Excellent supply of information. I wasn't aware of the "official" nomenclature for many of these arguments and this is also more in depth than the average Christian understands, so this is good to have in your back pocket. Thanks.

I need a way bigger back pocket!! [/quote]

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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07-03-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
I had a brief chat with an old friend that had recently started sharing bible quotes on Facebook. I asked if he had recently signed up for something by mistake, but it turns out he is really into the this stuff. I never take a defensive position, but it came up that I am an Atheist and he shared the following:

"I'm glad you said what is on your mind. Some of my favorite people are
Atheists who after thorough research have come to the conclusion that
Christianity is in fact real and factual. You can start by watching the movie
"The Case for Christs" an Atheist Journalist set out to prove the
bible wrong. Also you can read Roman Historian Tacitus (116 AD) how he
documents Christs crucifixion or Josephus (94 AD) And how he documents the life
of Christ. Or Greek writer Lucian (170 AD) All non christian historians. Let me
know what you think after you do a little research."
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[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]I plan on researching all of this over the weekend, but am sure that someone on this forum is familiar with the material and the position this person is coming from. Can I get some opinion on an appropriate, education response?[/font]
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[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Thanks in advance.
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07-03-2013, 05:30 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
In simple, understandable, specific terms, what is the difference between "faith" and "belief"?

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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14-03-2013, 12:20 PM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(07-03-2013 05:30 PM)RaisdCath Wrote:  In simple, understandable, specific terms, what is the difference between "faith" and "belief"?


In the Bible, these terms mean, in context (context meaning not taking verse fragments but the whole passage, the Bible teaches in passages):

Belief: something given credence to whether or not there is evidence

Faith: Trust in God for the future because He has been trustworthy in the past

Thank you.
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19-03-2013, 08:06 AM
RE: Commonly Used Debate Arguments for Dummies
(06-03-2013 02:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:They are unable to work any Holy Spirit powers to cast out demons or speak in foreign languages.
I've witnessed both but that's not my empirical proof for God's existence.

People who speak in tongues are not speaking any actual language. Glossolalia. I can babble incoherently to impress gullible onlookers and say it was god, too. You have no empirical evidence, let alone proof, for the existence of a god. If you did, you wouldn't be here.

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." --Dr. House
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