Comparative Hats
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25-08-2014, 07:24 AM
Comparative Hats
Here's an analogy.

Which terms and conditions are acceptable, in your view?

Imagine that there is a social club that is set up so that like-minded individuals can get together for the usual things that social clubs get together for. Dodgy

They set some rules (a layer of governance) that establishes the do's and don'ts of membership.

They decide that one of the rules, just for fun, is that each member must wear a hat to the meetings.

Failure so to do results in an affordable financial penalty (a bit like a swear-box, at work).

I presume that you, the reader, have no problem with this... it's their club, their rules and if anyone does not like the rules, they can leave the club, right?

Maybe later on, the club leaders decide that they want to standardise the hats. It's a unifying thing. There is some debate and in the end they decide that everyone can still wear the hat of their choice but to show that they are a member of that particular club each hat will have a badge in the shape of a star pinned to it.

Cool! The star hat club. That's OK, right?

So what if, after a change of leadership, the rule was extended so that each member was required to always wear their hat... at home, to work and, I dunno, in the swimming pool? Huh? Really?

Well, again, I guess that if it's not hurting anyone, right? I suppose that if they are on a building site the safety hat still counts as a hat. They can stick a star on that.

But what if it's a specific hat? Maybe a straw hat?

Well, yeah. That's a bit trickier, especially in a swimming pool, but hey, I've seen guys working on the roads in Malaysia who wear straw hats under their safety hats as a protection from the sun, so I guess that's OK.

Again, if they don't like the rule, they can leave the club or perhaps start a new club with rules that are acceptable to them.

Worried about membership numbers, the leadership impose a penalty for leaving. Not too much, it's more of a social penalty/stigma thing but enough to make people think twice before throwing their star-hat away.

After some time, a small faction starts to grow into a larger faction within the group. These are the people who say that they want the group to grow. They want to go out on recruitment drives and expand the membership because it's such fun and everyone should be having this kind of fun.

Well, sadly, not everyone agrees so the faction decides to leave the club and set up on their own. They keep the rules pretty much the same but to make a distinction between themselves and the old club, they redesign the star so that it only has 4 points instead of 6.

They hire some marketing experts and the club takes off.

To keep the numbers high, they impose a stiffer penalty for leaving.

Well, what about that? People join of their own free will and they know the penalty (before they join) for leaving, right?

You might get a bit peeved at the constant recruitment drives but you don't have to join, do you?

Anyway, after a while, and a few more rules' changes another club sets up. They prefer the old 6-star-hat rules (after some modification) but essentially they are competing for membership against the 4-star hats (let's call that a 'cross' for convenience) and the two groups get into tussles on occasions. For a start, they want to use the same club house which has become 'sacred' for all three clubs.

They proudly wear a crescent on their hats.
Their penalty for leaving involves very severe penalties and some of their members are much more prone to violence against outsiders who don't wish to wear hats.


A few weeks back, I was told that a gentleman calling himself Asad Allāh ʿAlī al-Andalusī (you may know him as YouTuber DawahFilms) was to visit Singapore to address an audience.

I was tempted to attend but didn't because a) I was flying to Australia on that day b) I had already committed to attending the local philosophy group meet-up -- the subject was Tolerance wrt to some on-going (then) uproar about pulling some books from the children's section of the National Library. That will be the subject of my next OP, btw.
Also, the meet-up was free but the Islamic one was $25. So there's that.

I googled the speaker and found out that he advocated murder of apostates. His argument was that as the members of the crescent-hat club knew the rules, then they have to accept the consequences and leaving the club was nothing more than suicide.

In a way, I see the parallel. You join a club, you've read the rules so you pay the pre-agreed penalty for leaving.

Likewise, if you join a company, you've read the contract and the security policy etc. if you breach the agreement then you pay the penalty.

But social clubs aren't usually so harsh with ex-members and businesses don't usually kill people either. So there's that.

But where the analogy breaks down is that businesses are not allowed to hire under-age workers i.e. young people who are not experienced enough to understand the contract they are signing.

Here's the deal, I'd like to say to our Islamic friend, I will let you enact the harshest penalty on your apostates if you, in turn, agree not to attempt to recruit anyone under the age of 18.

Deal?

So, this, I think is why we (maybe just me) have no problem with the current version of the star-hat club (Judaism) and even the cross-hat club (christianity) is relatively harmless as the afterlife punishment they scare us with is an illusion but the crescent-hat club? Nah!

But all of you mad hatters, please, leave the kids alone!
And we know why you won't... it's only the childhood indoctrination that keeps your discourse alive.

As LK Washburn wrote in 1911:
"If there were no ministers and no priests, how long would there be any churches?"

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25-08-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
(25-08-2014 07:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Here's the deal, I'd like to say to our Islamic friend, I will let you enact the harshest penalty on your apostates if you, in turn, agree not to attempt to recruit anyone under the age of 18.

Deal?

So, this, I think is why we (maybe just me) have no problem with the current version of the star-hat club (Judaism) and even the cross-hat club (christianity) is relatively harmless as the afterlife punishment they scare us with is an illusion but the crescent-hat club? Nah!

But all of you mad hatters, please, leave the kids alone!
And we know why you won't... it's only the childhood indoctrination that keeps your discourse alive.

As LK Washburn wrote in 1911:
"If there were no ministers and no priests, how long would there be any churches?"

Thumbsup

The problem with the Crescent Club is that everyone born to a member is automatically a member, has no say in it, and is subject to the rules that they didn't actually agree to.

I will burn your Crescent Club.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-08-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
I'd like to point out that the one's wearing the "safety hats" are not ok because those are helmets technically, different from a hat lol.

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25-08-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
(25-08-2014 12:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
The problem with the Crescent Club is that everyone born to a member is automatically a member, has no say in it, and is subject to the rules that they didn't actually agree to.

I will burn your Crescent Club.

Does that not also apply to all the other hat clubs?

Of course, they are quite merrily burning each other's club-houses.

The crescent-hat club has also subdivided into different factions. Something to do with the way their leaders get elected. Shit hits the fan at the AGM.

Facepalm

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25-08-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
(25-08-2014 12:59 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  I'd like to point out that the one's wearing the "safety hats" are not ok because those are helmets technically, different from a hat lol.

There is a special place in hell for helmets.

Yes

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25-08-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
(25-08-2014 07:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But what if it's a specific hat? Maybe a straw hat?

Fezzes. 'Cause they're cool.

[Image: fezzes.jpg]

#sigh
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25-08-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
(25-08-2014 04:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 07:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But what if it's a specific hat? Maybe a straw hat?

Fezzes. 'Cause they're cool.

[Image: fezzes.jpg]

Agreed.

But is that all you have to say?

No Pink Floyd vid? Have you been taking meds to counter your hanging-reference compulsion?

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25-08-2014, 04:49 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
(25-08-2014 04:26 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 04:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Fezzes. 'Cause they're cool.

Agreed.

But is that all you have to say?

No Pink Floyd vid? Have you been taking meds to counter your hanging-reference compulsion?

Turns out it was a dopamine deficiency. Mmmmmm dopamine.




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25-08-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
Ok, just to extend the analogy. The Mormons don't wear a hat, they have special underwear they wear.

Whether they are aware of it or not, organized religion is losing the battle for the younger minds. This interwebz thing has pierced the apologist bubble, why go ask a leader in the church their opinion on a question you have, maybe darkmatter2525's youtube channel pops up when you do a search on youtube. He has a lot of answers to those nagging questions.

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25-08-2014, 05:10 PM
RE: Comparative Hats
(25-08-2014 04:04 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 12:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
The problem with the Crescent Club is that everyone born to a member is automatically a member, has no say in it, and is subject to the rules that they didn't actually agree to.

I will burn your Crescent Club.

Does that not also apply to all the other hat clubs?

Not the death part, no.

Quote:Of course, they are quite merrily burning each other's club-houses.

The crescent-hat club has also subdivided into different factions. Something to do with the way their leaders get elected. Shit hits the fan at the AGM.

Facepalm

We should encourage the factional disputes. Drinking Beverage

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