Comparative Hats
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29-08-2014, 05:52 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2014 06:23 AM by Chas.)
RE: Comparative Hats
The problem is that hatters gonna hat. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-08-2014, 06:05 AM
RE: Comparative Hats
(29-08-2014 05:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  The problem is that hatter's gonna hat. Drinking Beverage

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29-08-2014, 06:06 AM
RE: Comparative Hats
(29-08-2014 05:15 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Lumi,
How would you enforce the no rules rule?

Wink
The rule doesn't say no rules. That would be a contradiction. It says no rulers, no lords, no masters, no gods Wink
And this rule is not enforced, because any enforcer himself is just another ruler. It is cared and nurtured, in myself and family.
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29-08-2014, 06:19 AM
RE: Comparative Hats
(29-08-2014 06:06 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(29-08-2014 05:15 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Lumi,
How would you enforce the no rules rule?

Wink
The rule doesn't say no rules. That would be a contradiction. It says no rulers, no lords, no masters, no gods Wink
And this rule is not enforced, because any enforcer himself is just another ruler. It is cared and nurtured, in myself and family.

Which means as everyone so far seems to agree, one of the things to fix is protecting / nurturing the children and ensuring that they not indoctrinated with hat-club rules / encouraged to become rulers.

How does society encourage / enforce correct behaviour and discourage incorrect behaviour?

How does a social group that has normalised the correct behaviour protect itself from the hat-club mentality?

Consider

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29-08-2014, 06:52 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2014 06:56 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Comparative Hats
(29-08-2014 06:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Which means as everyone so far seems to agree, one of the things to fix is protecting / nurturing the children and ensuring that they not indoctrinated with hat-club rules / encouraged to become rulers.

How does society encourage / enforce correct behaviour and discourage incorrect behaviour?

How does a social group that has normalised the correct behaviour protect itself from the hat-club mentality?

Consider
Agreement from everyone isn't enough. Nurture isn't something we sign up to, it's something we feel we received from someone, were affirmed and validated by someone - parents, caregivers and so on. If we don't have that, we lack love even for ourselves and we see a child as a parasite sucking on our precious lifeline. We must internally experience this abundance of affirmative love in order to be able to pass it on. The only way to recover that validity if we never experienced it, is to relax and regress in vivid memories into early state of childhood and feel compassion, not shame, for the child we once were.

Society is from the word socius, a trade partner. Beyond trade, society is not real, just an abstraction, a projection, a shadow play. People who identify with the society have no self.
What is correct and what is incorrect? I'll tell you what, incorrect is to put your hand in a fire and when it hurts keep it in the fire because it would offend the fire if you pulled your hand away, you need to forgive the fire, be respectful, tolerant and forget. If you don't forgive and don't stay, you're the bad one. This is exactly what society says.

There is no social group of correct behavior. There is just a network of people who were affirmed as good and worthy and feel no need to seek collective identity to cover for a lack of personal identity. Their needs are met by their real emotional relationships, not imaginary relationships to some symbols and social or cultural groups.
There is no absolute guarantee or protection in this world. We are all slightly dangerous. People who want absolute safety and security (often fueled by deep sense of insecurity since childhood) are the greatest danger to everyone. We protect ourselves by not building huge and mandatory security institutions and organizations (which are easy to take over and use against us) but by keeping our wealth for voluntary purposes and staying flexible and mobile - not necessarily with our bodies, but with control over our money and attention.

People are born naturally functional, competent and validly responding to real stimuli. By valid I mean negative response to unpleasant stimuli and positive response to pleasant stimuli. You can imagine for yourself how our society appreciates to face and withstand fear, pain and punishment as a sign of courage. Well, fuck that, that's a perversion.
The task of a parent is not to teach "correct" behavior with negative stimuli (that is a contradiction and a perversion of validity), but to protect the child's valid response and innate desire to be good and safely introduce it to nuances of social complexity.
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29-08-2014, 06:59 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2014 02:38 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Comparative Hats
What you don't seem to understand is, wearing a hat is for your own good, and any consequences that ensue from your leaving the hat club, are for your own good, and the good of the other hatters. The Imhats know best.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-08-2014, 07:02 AM
RE: Comparative Hats
So when a warlord/ganglord does emerge, there is no means available to remove them?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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29-08-2014, 07:11 AM
RE: Comparative Hats
(29-08-2014 07:02 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So when a warlord/ganglord does emerge, there is no means available to remove them?
There are two conversations to be had. What to do when a warlord/ganglord does emerge is one thing and what to do so that you don't make future warlords and gang members in 20 years, that is another thing.

Philosophy and therapy is a long term prevention method, like nutrition. You don't go talking to a nutritionist when you get a heart attack.
Keeping security, personal, collective and municipal, is easy and straightforward and there's nothing morally wrong with that. It's just that my favorite and more useful topic I think, is prevention.
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29-08-2014, 07:55 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2014 08:05 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Comparative Hats
(29-08-2014 06:52 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(29-08-2014 06:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Which means as everyone so far seems to agree, one of the things to fix is protecting / nurturing the children and ensuring that they not indoctrinated with hat-club rules / encouraged to become rulers.

How does society encourage / enforce correct behaviour and discourage incorrect behaviour?

How does a social group that has normalised the correct behaviour protect itself from the hat-club mentality?

Consider
Agreement from everyone isn't enough. Nurture isn't something we sign up to, it's something we feel we received from someone, were affirmed and validated by someone - parents, caregivers and so on. If we don't have that, we lack love even for ourselves and we see a child as a parasite sucking on our precious lifeline. We must internally experience this abundance of affirmative love in order to be able to pass it on. The only way to recover that validity if we never experienced it, is to relax and regress in vivid memories into early state of childhood and feel compassion, not shame, for the child we once were.

Society is from the word socius, a trade partner. Beyond trade, society is not real, just an abstraction, a projection, a shadow play. People who identify with the society have no self.
What is correct and what is incorrect? I'll tell you what, incorrect is to put your hand in a fire and when it hurts keep it in the fire because it would offend the fire if you pulled your hand away, you need to forgive the fire, be respectful, tolerant and forget. If you don't forgive and don't stay, you're the bad one. This is exactly what society says.

There is no social group of correct behavior. There is just a network of people who were affirmed as good and worthy and feel no need to seek collective identity to cover for a lack of personal identity. Their needs are met by their real emotional relationships, not imaginary relationships to some symbols and social or cultural groups.
There is no absolute guarantee or protection in this world. We are all slightly dangerous. People who want absolute safety and security (often fueled by deep sense of insecurity since childhood) are the greatest danger to everyone. We protect ourselves by not building huge and mandatory security institutions and organizations (which are easy to take over and use against us) but by keeping our wealth for voluntary purposes and staying flexible and mobile - not necessarily with our bodies, but with control over our money and attention.

People are born naturally functional, competent and validly responding to real stimuli. By valid I mean negative response to unpleasant stimuli and positive response to pleasant stimuli. You can imagine for yourself how our society appreciates to face and withstand fear, pain and punishment as a sign of courage. Well, fuck that, that's a perversion.
The task of a parent is not to teach "correct" behavior with negative stimuli (that is a contradiction and a perversion of validity), but to protect the child's valid response and innate desire to be good and safely introduce it to nuances of social complexity.

There is a message of hope in there.

Networks are the key.

Our successful future as a species (and by inference, a no-hat species) is dependent on the spread of information, knowledge and wisdom.

This then, in turn, is dependent upon the proliferation of and access to Information systems, networks and services.

The network is a collection of individuals.

What are individuals? What makes us what we are? According to the boffins, we are information… a collection of memories.

We have four memory sources:
1. External Sources / our environment
2. Our Central Nervous System
3. Our Immune System
4. Our DNA

You referred to 2. but let's think about them all with regards to their IT equivalents.

IT Service Management best practice (Dark Light has just done his exam in this subject btw) has those covered, respectively:

1. The Service Knowledge Management System (SKMS); Wider than just the lump of goo between our ears and including Google, Wikipedia etc.
2. The Service Portfolio; value analysis: pleasure = go, pain = stop
3. The Known Error Database (KEDB); what symptoms and diseases have we encountered and how did we deal with them?
4. The Configuration Management System (CMS); all our component parts and how they interrelate

It is worth noting that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are/were non-hatters.

It seems to me that what you are saying above is that #1 will be our salvation.

I think that #4, our DNA, is currently our stumbling block. We are not upgrading our Configuration Items quickly enough.

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29-08-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Comparative Hats
(29-08-2014 07:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  1. The Service Knowledge Management System (SKMS); Wider than just the lump of goo between our ears and including Google, Wikipedia etc.
2. The Service Portfolio; value analysis: pleasure = go, pain = stop
3. The Known Error Database (KEDB); what symptoms and diseases have we encountered and how did we deal with them?
4. The Configuration Management System (CMS); all our component parts and how they interrelate

It is worth noting that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are/were non-hatters.

It seems to me that what you are saying above is that #1 will be our salvation.

I think that #4, our DNA, is currently our stumbling block.
I actually meant #2. That is the deepest problem we have, if we don't get this right, we get nothing right. By any chance, have you ever seen any pain-seeking behavior in me? Consider 96 pages of it perhaps?
People who have endured early pain and accustomed themselves to it seek and create pain in order to feel whole and competent (#4) It's called Simon the boxer syndrome.

The #1 is a beta expansion pack slapped on top of a monkey brain which is slapped on top of a lizard brain. It is very responsive, but it is slow and buggy as hell. It's easily fooled. For one socially awkward but successful Bill Gates are many thousands of others who never make it out of their parents' basements and garages. If they ever do, they make remotely controlled super-weapons for the military for a monthly paycheck.

#3 is very dangerous. Emphasis on the word known. It gets created in circumstances of unprocessed, therefore often unknown helplessness. It only wants to protect us and help us survive. But this part of ourselves does not automatically come off when circumstances get better - often it makes so that they don't get better, it gets nervous when things are better (I'm a priest, who needs me if people are happy?). It is called the false self and it may take over the whole personality. It is our inner critic, our inner government. It is the best friend of all hats and badges. The false self is autonomous and is protected by shame, fear and pain. It is a most exquisite chameleon transparent facehugger. When you think you saw your flaws stopped being cruel and repented yourself, then it is again firmly lodged on your face. If you intentionally hurt children, it will never come off.

As for #4, you might want to read up on the Internal Family Systems therapy. That would fit very well right there.
You're right, our DNA is a problem, but perhaps not how you mean it. Human DNA is so variable! We have really two sets of DNA, genetics and epigenetics. Epigenetics can be changed through hormones over our lifetime or prenatally by mother experiences and it can be inherited. This is almost like Lysenko's ghost rising from the grave, but the changes are rather behavioral.
Humans are not single species, we are a whole ecosystem of predators, herd animals, bottom feeders, scavengers,
That's what our DNA is. Fuckin' variable. And our brain is even more variable. That places the most responsibility on #1 to take care of #2 and together prevent the danger of #3 and #4 should not cause too much trouble.

So DNA raises more questions than answers and it excuses nothing. If a father is alcoholic, one son may be an alcoholic "because my father is an alcoholic so I have no choice". Another son may be completely sober "because my father is an alcoholic, so I never touch the stuff".

We must see human beings as pieces of walking computing capacity, which must have their firewall. When we see a bad one, we must look at the programmers. Programming, also known as parenting, is not like conditioning of animals. It is not using negative stimuli to elicit positive responses. But even positive conditioning is wrong, because it's external. The purpose is to create a fully autonomous unit with full control over its capacity, whatever it happens to be, none of our business. The locus of control must stay within the child, it must not be used by parent to control the child externally for parental convenience and pride. A baby has no locus of self, it is vitally dependent on mother. Mother is there so the baby doesn't die. Father is there so the child doesn't get attached and enmeshed with the mother, without boundaries and real self. Fathers are essential for empathy, sanity and future without getting to jail. If you don't believe, take a walk in welfare neighbourhoods where young people without fathers look for an imaginary father in a gang member - or a church leader for that matter.
I would not be surprised if there were similar neighbourhoods in Islamic countries where fathers went to holy war.
These are some basics of the human programming Drinking Beverage

Yes, there is a hope in there. People can revert to primitiveness if exposed to early violence, but they can just as easily become civilized and empathetic. We can create a brand-new generation in 5 years of peaceful parenting. For us, the evolution takes little time, we already control it by how we behave towards children.

http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/septe...stress.htm
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v7/n1/...n1832.html
Also, on drug addiction I recommend "In the realm of hungry ghosts" by Gabor Mate.
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