Compelling evidence for Christianity
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-08-2012, 05:39 PM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
William Lane Craig formulates the argument as follows

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.

With two sub-sets of arguments.
First sub-set of arguments

Argument based on the impossibility of an actual infinite:

An actual infinite cannot exist.
An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.

Second sub-set of arguments

Argument based on the impossibility of the formation of an actual infinite by successive addition:

A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite.
The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition.
Therefore, the temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2012, 05:51 PM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
(13-08-2012 05:39 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  William Lane Craig formulates the argument as follows

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.

With two sub-sets of arguments.
First sub-set of arguments

Argument based on the impossibility of an actual infinite:

An actual infinite cannot exist.
An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.

Second sub-set of arguments

Argument based on the impossibility of the formation of an actual infinite by successive addition:

A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite.
The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition.
Therefore, the temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite.

The logic is very broken.
He assumes the universe had a beginning, without evidence.
He doesn't understand the concept of infinity and makes unsupported (and unsupportable) declarations about it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2012, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2012 06:29 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
William Lane Craig formulates the argument as follows

p1 Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

Fail see virtual particles, also things that exist, are formed out of other things that exist. It doesn't make since to say things begin to exist. When was the last time a chair began to exist?

p2 The universe began to exist.

Fail, all we know for sure is that the universe was very ordered. From that ordered state the inflation of space and time lead eventually to us. Whether or not the universe began hasn't and isn't known yet. It could have had a beginning in some models, and in others could be a part of a process that goes on into infinity.

p3 Therefore, the universe has a cause.

As we already discussed it's a maybe.

Then he usually cites a changeless, timeless, all powerful, all knowing, all loving, personal creator, was the cause.

Which is the largest hasty generalization possible. It leaves open the idea that any God with those properties is as valid as any body elses. Leaving this argument open to justify every sect of , Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Other monotheistic religions could also use it if their versions of god have the same properties.




Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2012, 06:28 PM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity



Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2012, 07:00 PM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
Since virtual particles pop in and out of existence all the time, we seem to have something that begins to exist without a cause that we know of.
We also have radioactive decay.
Radioactive decay is the process by which an atomic nucleus of an unstable atom loses energy by emitting ionizing particles
Alpha decay is one example type of radioactive decay, in which an atomic nucleus emits an alpha particle, and thereby transforms (or 'decays') into an atom with a mass number 4 less and atomic number 2 less.
In Alpha decay, an alpha particle begins to exist. The cause is instability.
The cause of the universe could simply be instability in a singularity.

Also, I have a small personal beef with people and physicists who use the word time as if it is something more than a concept.
Time is a concept in which we measure change. If there is no change, there is no time.
If we rewind the events at the beginning of the expansion of the universe, we come to a seemingly unknown
Some say it's a singularity. If there is something, however strange it may be and if that something experiences change, then there is the concept of time.
If something is unstable, then that means there is change and if there is change, there is the concept of time

In our universe, time is relative. Time is the molecular movement of matter at a certain rate. The faster we travel, the slower molecular time moves.
What this means is that if there are two clocks, one on a plane and one on the ground. The clock in the flying plane will function ever so slightly slower than the clock on the ground.
This has been proven with actual experiments time and time again.

I don't know if we can talk about before the universe, but like the alpha decay example, we can talk about before the alpha particle came into existence because we are outside the event. We watch what happens on the exterior of it all, but what if you existed inside that alpha particle looking out.

I can only take a guess at how this universe all began, but my guess is that this universe is not the only one, in much the same way that there is not just one snowflake.
And like snowflakes, a god is not needed for them to begin existing either.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-08-2012, 06:09 AM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
Bump

I hope you didn't forget this thread, ideasonscribe. Sleepy

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vosur's post
15-08-2012, 06:50 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2012 08:49 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
"Everything that has come to exist has a cause".

Great.

If the Principle of Causality is the way the universe works, and is part of the structure of the universe, then who/what put Causality in place, (what caused Causality) ?

If 99 % of matter and energy is Dark Matter and Dark Energy, to assert "everything that has come to exist has a cause", is just a bit premature, as we know nothing about almost all of Reality.

(Don't tell me it was a god(s), as causing causality presumes causality, and THAT is infinite regression).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-08-2012, 10:51 AM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
(15-08-2012 06:09 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Bump

I hope you didn't forget this thread, ideasonscribe. Sleepy

Nah, I haven't forgotten. The material I'm getting into for this thread is much more complicated than normal.
I'm trying to balance my study time with spending time with my wife, personal time (minecraft), cleaning the house and work.

I was studying th resurrection of Jesus for a minute there but then when this came up, I put that on hold.. I've some heavy lifting to do..

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2012, 08:16 AM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
Bump No. 2

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: Compelling evidence for Christianity
I may get to this someday, but I have too much to deal with in my life at the moment to put the appropriate energy into research and writing on this topic.

For now, I'm going to stick with chiming into different forum topics when I have the time to do so.

Anyone is welcome to continue the conversation as they wish.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: