Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
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30-10-2011, 01:43 AM
Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
I've been thinking about a few things, and I thought I may as well run them by you guys.

Firstly, creationism and evolution. It seems that - and brace yourself, you might fall out of your seats - creationists don't really understand evolution. They often talk about how they accept microevolution but not macroevolution - apparently you can walk to the fridge but walking to the supermarket is just impossible. I think this is just a scapegoat. Something about evolution they latch on to as the part of evolution that disagrees with their theology and the idea that God put man on this earth in his current form.
It seems that they can't distinguish common ancestry from the process of evolution. The bible never says "Thou shalt not Speciate!" It doesn't even mention species, just the unscientific 'kind'. So, when you think about it, since the bible doesn't disagree with the idea of something evolving (speciating - two populations that can no longer interbreed, the simplest definition) but it does disagree with common ancestry (the idea that all living things share a common ancestor.. chimps are our cousins.. etc), then why don't we see creationists accepting that evolution can occur and antibiotic resistance is a problem, but that God put us on the earth in our current form. They could even believe that humans do not change over time but everything else does - antibiotic resistance is a little hard to deny, after all..
I don't get it, evolution doesn't even contradict their beliefs. You would think that by now some religious people would have realised this. Does this make sense to you guys? Am I missing something totally obvious?


Secondly, the idea that we humans are distinct from other animals by the fact we have a soul. This means we can go to heaven and have an eternal life, whichever way we choose. But when you ask them to distinguish a soul from the functions of the brain they can't come up with anything. They sometimes say it's the part that feels love. But other animals are capable of love, empathy, rage, loyalty, and all these other things. And we know based on experiments influencing the human brain, that the human brain is responsible for the same.
So.. They want us to believe that we have a cosmic purpose and that we live forever based on something indistinguishable from the function of the brain? We don't even know it exists - being indistinguishable and all.. - so why would we think that we go to heaven from something that we inherintly cannot prove.
And as another point, some theists can't bear for their pets they love so dear to not be in heaven along side them, or in another doggy heaven of their own, so they come up with a heaven for pets, and apparently then their pets will live on forever, just like they do.
Ok, so based on that.. do dogs have a soul? Is a doggy soul distinguishable from the brain? If they don't, why would they go to heaven? And where is the biblical support for pet heaven? And most importantly, haven't they already admitted they only believe in heaven due to a fear innate in humans about one day just not existing anymore?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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30-10-2011, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2011 08:30 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
(30-10-2011 01:43 AM)daemonowner Wrote:  I don't get it, evolution doesn't even contradict their beliefs. You would think that by now some religious people would have realised this. Does this make sense to you guys? Am I missing something totally obvious?

The main problem they have is that evolution has no absolute beginning. It comes in conflict with the biblical story of Genesis. If no Eden, then no tree of knowledge, no single, identifiable moment of self-realization: no original sin, no perdition, no need for a redeemer.... no basis for christianity and all its horrors.
This is the single concept they can't afford to let go.

Quote: ... do dogs have a soul? Is a doggy soul distinguishable from the brain? If they don't, why would they go to heaven?

Most of the dogs don't go to heaven. Some xtians allow saved humans to bring their pets or a pet heaven (a silly way to avoid losing adherents is all). But cows and pigs are right out of the question, forget wild animals.
Again, it's not a matter of logic or consistency or facts, but of doctrine. You can't allow other species to have souls, because then you'd have to reconsider using, disposing, dispossessing, enslaving, abusing and exterminating them at our pleasure.
Can't afford that kind of heresy in muscular capitalist christianity.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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30-10-2011, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2011 08:34 AM by free2011.)
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
daemonowner you're thoughts are ones that keep me up during the night. These questions seem to pop into my head and to me it is so obviously contradictory to their stories that you have to ask, "why", "how", "what", "when" until you think your head will expode.

Believers will soon have to admit that evolution is true and then you will see them twist it to match their beliefs as you have spelled out. For now "God made man in his image" and that is what and how we are today. As near as I can tell he was a caucasin with curly blond hair and very defined muscles. As peterkin notes, take out Adam and Eve and you take away original sin, which means the rest of the story isn't needed.

Yes dogs do go to heaven if it helps the owner feel more comforted while on their death bed. Yet another reason religion was invented. Doesn't mesh with the story? Let's just put a spin on this passage or that and it will.

Yet another reason I hate this shit
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30-10-2011, 12:24 PM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2011 12:29 PM by daemonowner.)
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
(30-10-2011 08:25 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  The main problem they have is that evolution has no absolute beginning. It comes in conflict with the biblical story of Genesis. If no Eden, then no tree of knowledge, no single, identifiable moment of self-realization: no original sin, no perdition, no need for a redeemer.... no basis for christianity and all its horrors.
This is the single concept they can't afford to let go.

Well couldn't even a young earth creationist accept the earth is young, that God made it young, that Adam and Eve sinned by eating an apple, etc, but also that once Adam and Eve left the garden that everything - or everything apart from humans - started to evolve? Just changes over time, nothing big.. and the bible doesn't say anything about that.
They can have their original sin, but maybe the process of evolution too?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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30-10-2011, 02:35 PM
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
It’s going to happen one day where some theist gets all “Well obviously evolution is real, it is guided by the hand of (insert whatever)”
And then like they always do they will just drop the last 100 years of arguments where they fought tooth and nail against it.
Like they did with such minor inconsequential things like the earth being flat and in the centre of the universe.

Animals weren’t made in his image so no dice.
That animals don’t have souls comes from the same arrogance that says humans ARE made in gods image, really? Why?
He’s a paranoid megalomaniac that our worst dictators don’t come close to.
You must blindly obey and never question…
That free will thing was a bit of a “woops” moment then wasn’t it?

And god made the earth and the people, and the salt flats so we could go really, really fast just for fun, and hundreds of billions of distant suns with planets and moons hundreds of thousands of light years away with vast distant galaxies with even more stars and quasars and black holes and trillions of billions of tons of galactic building blocks spiralling through the abyss.
Just for the view.
Just for us.
Arrogance, the word just isn’t enough.

If god made the earth, chances are he can’t find where he put it!
Think of losing your car keys…
In the Atlantic…
I know I left them here somewhere…

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-10-2011, 03:19 PM
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
(30-10-2011 12:24 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  Well couldn't even a young earth creationist accept the earth is young, that God made it young, that Adam and Eve sinned by eating an apple, etc, but also that once Adam and Eve left the garden that everything - or everything apart from humans - started to evolve? Just changes over time, nothing big.. and the bible doesn't say anything about that.
They can have their original sin, but maybe the process of evolution too?

There are different versions and degrees of acceptance - lots of different churches.
I used to know both Catholic priests and Protestant ministers who were quite comfortable with evolution as taught in science class; contending that you can count eons as days; one guy who openly regarded the bible as allegorical, not literal.
Right now, literalists are wielding most of the religious clout in America, so we don't hear about more moderate views.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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31-10-2011, 12:54 PM
 
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
The whole DOG going to heaven thing always amused me.

Even funnier, back in the day when i was a Growing Fundie on Fire for the lord, i recall asking my Mentor in the faith (at my southern baptist school) about the possibilities of Aliens and Alien life forms.

I can still hear his joke of an answer in my head today....

"Well, if they exist, Jesus died for them too".

What a way to white wash pure ignorance and stupidity.

Dont have a real answer based anywhere near a fact...just add a Teaspoon of Jesus!

D
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31-10-2011, 01:41 PM
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
I know these thoughts are really hard to grasp sometimes but you have to remember when looking at christians that every big spiritual dilemma they have is finding a way to make an ancient book the answer to all problems. Any time that something comes up which the book is not prepared for they run around like a chicken with it's head cut off looking for ways to fit it into the book. Many things they do and argue about don't make sense, but it is because they already have the answer and fear that a question won't lead to it.

The two issues with evolution are carbon dating and ape to man, as long as they tie these two things along with the rest they will fight it. They decided that micro-evolution does not prove either so they accept it.

and yes animal heaven is the same as black mormon, just a societal change to help keep the religion going. The book doesn't need to have said something to mean it. One of the most aggravating things about religion.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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31-10-2011, 03:11 PM
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
Something that's boggled my mind (when i let it, for brief intervals) is the amount of real intellect, acuity and talent that's gone into this futile exercise. Bright, potentially worthwhile guys like Aquinas and Blake, spending all those candle-hours on something so idiotic as making one death - among all the hundreds of thousands at Roman arms - transcendentally significant. The details are nowhere near as boggling.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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31-10-2011, 05:11 PM
RE: Complicated and tedious thoughts I've been having
The "dogs don't go to heaven" issue was one that cemented my non-belief in Christianity and its god when I was young.

I asked the vicar if my pet dog that had died would go to heaven and he said that god didn't give animals "souls", so no, they couldn't go to heaven with people. I was 10 or 11 and suddenly the whole Christianity sham hit me like a ton of bricks. It was nonsense! Totally!

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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