Concept of Hell
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13-03-2012, 08:36 PM
RE: Concept of Hell
Quote:There is a fundamental problem with what you say. You are applying sense, reason and logic to a religious concept, the 2 don't mix well.

As regards hell, the proposition of infinite torture for a finite crime is ridiculous. I have also equally found the idea of eternal bliss equally fucked up though. If there was a literal heaven as we would assume when discussing a literal hell, then surely heaven would become hell. You go and be with friends and family, what do you do after 5 or 6 hundred years, you would be bored shitless. I think that by the time you got to 5000 years you would be nuts and heaven would most likely have become hell for you. If not then how about 50'000 years or 1'000'000 years etc. Personally I would rather just die when the time comes.

I would also ask how the suffering is experienced, as we have left our physical bodies so you would think our senses die with this. This of course is granting them the courtesy of assuming some sort of soul exists, rather than our sense of self dying along with the brain.

There is of course the problem defining god. Most religions that subscribe to belief in such bollocks also define god as just and loving. They will also imply or state a mixture of the omnipotence, omniscience or omnipresence of their god and possibly some other things that end in ence (except sense that is).

So we have a just and loving god, he is powerful and all knowing.
Such a god would not create such a place. If he does he is not just and loving.

Sorry if this is not very coherent, it is late and I have drank far too much of some bubbly pink stuff. I must now get some sleep and will try to post something more succinct tomorrow.

I read that first line, and was like "ah man... what kind of stupid thing did I say? :'(". Turns out you just agreed with everything I said! You got me there at first.

Also, I disagree with that but that you would be bored forever. I'm sure in heaven, since it's "perfect", they get you to the point where you have no outside desire, and you live in true eternal bliss. God makes it so that you never get bored.

Quote:In hell, you get no spaghetti for eternity. It's true. So you better praise FSM... then again, there is always IPU that might get pissed off and hoof you to death forever or until she gets tired. It's hard to make a choice really. Then of course there are the gods that will punish you no matter what you do or not. There is the deist god that is pretty much like reality except a god of the gaps, so you still don't exist, but feel comfort in knowing.. well, no, no real comfort in deism either. Kali is pretty hot (depending on depictions). I wouldn't mind getting tortured a bit by her. She can take my head any day... wait. What were we talking about?

Really? I'm not a deep Pastafarian, but I was gonna say that FSM Hell is that they give you sauce littered with Habanero peppers, and you have an insatiable hunger. And you must eat the sauce. lol, I like that one Big Grin

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
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13-03-2012, 08:46 PM
RE: Concept of Hell
(13-03-2012 08:27 PM)Eternal Wrote:  
(13-03-2012 07:41 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(13-03-2012 07:32 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Hell = without god. How is one without zero? Don't happen.

I thought someone here wrote that we go to hell for god's enjoyment? How can he enjoy our suffering if he's not there?

That was Egor, as he and his wife are the only Veridicans I don't think it matters much what he thinks. He can be worth debating with just for fun though.

That being said, not being there is the least of the problems. I mean you have a god that creates a place to punish us for eternity for a finite crime. According to Egor he takes pleasure in this. Also according to veridicanism the only thing needed to go to heaven is to give yourself to Jesus. It doesnt matter if you have been a serial rapist for 40 years. Just make sure you return to Jesus a little bit before you die and heaven awaits, whilst the man who dedicates his life to helping others and charity but happens to be an atheist/muslim/hindu/buddhist would go straight to hell for eternity.

I have said it before elsewhere and I will probably say it again. If that is their god then they can go fuck themselves, then go fuck their god.

It's a love + identity thing. I have an identity that confuses sex with pain, but never love... well, Gwynnies, leather and stilettos, but that's just me. Angel

Those who need their gods to fight their battles for them are obviously missing something. Beyond the threshold of eternity is beauty for all. That's what my Gwynnies tole me ten years ago; haven't had a reason to think otherwise since. Cannot hate enough in life to hate in death; that's doing something wrong. If love is the emotional dynamic of least entropy; it's a wave, not a particle. There is no need to conclude you love what I love and every reason to conclude if we all love in a different way, we got it covered.

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13-03-2012, 10:37 PM
RE: Concept of Hell
The image of hell has changed over the years mostly due to the culture of the time. Originally there was Sheol which was the land of the dead in the Jewish tradition. This was closer to the Greek hades then the Christian hell. Various statements of Jesus hinted that there would be a hell and that there would torment. I'm not sure if there was mention of eternal torment but it has generally been assumed. Later alot of our Imagery of hell along with the devil and I think angels, come from Dante's inferno and various art work. Especially as there was a time when art preferred to focus on the negative aspects as oppose to the positive aspects of religion.

Modern day theories have evolved with the advent of technology as we are able to better translate and analyse ancient documents.

The Jesuit Branch of Catholicism as even played with the idea of the non existence of hell. Hell as being temporary, Hell actually means sepperation from God and hell just means your soul no longer exists.

Also there has always been our doctrine of purgatory where a soul that is dirtied by sin is purified (often believed to be a bath of fire) before they enter heaven.

P.S. Spending time in heaven would theoretically not get boring since it would be a spirit form and therefore we can assume that the euphoria is not caused by the release of dopamine.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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13-03-2012, 11:06 PM
RE: Concept of Hell
(13-03-2012 10:37 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  P.S. Spending time in heaven would theoretically not get boring since it would be a spirit form and therefore we can assume that the euphoria is not caused by the release of dopamine.

All very interesting stuff.

Regarding the above. I do of course understand such points, but they do presume an acceptance of the notion that we have a soul.

I would also ask that if things can be experienced by the soul which resides within our bodies, why then do our physical bodies need the processes they have regarding cognitive processes etc? Is it like a twin sitting in the background doing nothing or does it serve a purpose whilst we inhabit these bodies?

I remember reading a story once about someone who tried to prove the existence of the soul. I can't recall the person although I think it was in France. He placed people who were near death on scales, so after they had died he could observe their reduction in weight, giving him the weight of the human soul which he believed would leave the body on death.

I'm fairly new here so don't know many people. Can I presume from the phrase "our doctrine of purgatory" that you are Catholic?

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-03-2012, 11:28 PM
RE: Concept of Hell
Quote:I remember reading a story once about someone who tried to prove the existence of the soul. I can't recall the person although I think it was in France. He placed people who were near death on scales, so after they had died he could observe their reduction in weight, giving him the weight of the human soul which he believed would leave the body on death.

My dad once told me, when my brother was on his deathbed (drugs, smoking, etc., he new this was coming, my dad warned him, not unexpected, so nothing tragic) that we are composed of the body, mind, and soul. My dad mentioned that he knows we have souls because we weigh less once we die; that is the soul escaping from our body. Of course, this implies that souls are made of matter, and I don't see how that works. If we really do lose mass, I'd assume it'd be a combination of the stopping of breathing and water evaporation, slowing leaving a small bit of mass out as we die. Of course, I am no expert, but that's what would explain it, as far as I know.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
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13-03-2012, 11:56 PM
RE: Concept of Hell
Quote:TarzanSmith Wrote:
P.S. Spending time in heaven would theoretically not get boring since it would be a spirit form and therefore we can assume that the euphoria is not caused by the release of dopamine.

All very interesting stuff.

Regarding the above. I do of course understand such points, but they do presume an acceptance of the notion that we have a soul.

I would also ask that if things can be experienced by the soul which resides within our bodies, why then do our physical bodies need the processes they have regarding cognitive processes etc? Is it like a twin sitting in the background doing nothing or does it serve a purpose whilst we inhabit these bodies?

I remember reading a story once about someone who tried to prove the existence of the soul. I can't recall the person although I think it was in France. He placed people who were near death on scales, so after they had died he could observe their reduction in weight, giving him the weight of the human soul which he believed would leave the body on death.

I'm fairly new here so don't know many people. Can I presume from the phrase "our doctrine of purgatory" that you are Catholic?

The concept of the soul although nominal religious does come up often in scientific world although almost entirely in the theoretical department. Labelled consciousness
often during the theorization of teleportation is the problem that once your atoms are reassembled is that you or a clone with the same memories. not quite the same but close enough.
But as we are talking about hell and eternal punishment I figured we were assuming the soul existed.
I could argue that all experiences relating to the physical world would be received using the physical body while stimuli relating to the spiritual world IE heaven and hell would be received by the soul. but I just pulled it out of my arse. But hey, it makes sense so I'll go with it for now.
And yes I am a Catholic. If you knew Warhammer 40k you would notice my avatar is an inquisitor.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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14-03-2012, 01:29 AM
 
RE: Concept of Hell
Hell has nothing to do with Justice. That should be obvious. Hell is eternal, because time is an illusory part of this physical universe. ‘nough said on that.

There are three fates that await a person upon death. 1. They will go to the kingdom of heaven. That is a lucid spiritual plane where an individual is allowed a much greater level of creative powers. Very much like a lucid dream. But if one has not transformed into the spirit of Christ there is no point in that person going to the Kingdom of heaven. They simply wouldn’t know what to do with it. Kind of like going to a feed lot, opening the gate and saying to the cows, “You’re free!”

2. For those that have not been reborn into the spirit of Christ, they are simply destroyed. That’s it. Just like all the seeds of all the plants that never become plants themselves. They had a purpose; they didn’t bring it to fruition; they are simply destroyed.

But (#3) for those who reject Christ. In other words, they know who Christ is; they know what he represents; they have studied all the arguments and still turn their back on God and Christ; those folks are sent to hell—forever. Their suffering is a pleasure to God. It has nothing to do with justice.

Let me wake you up to a little bit of truth regarding The Father. You are talking about a being that created the insect kingdom. He created animals with big teeth to eat the flesh of other animals. He incarnates souls into birth defected humans. He let Hitler have an easy death, along with his girlfriend and his dog. Countless human beings are slaughtered in front of Him every day, and he does nothing to stop it. He lets children and innocent animals starve to death. Do you really think He has a problem with hell?

On the other hand, he also sent his Son (whatever that means is another conversation) so that we could see how to be reconciled to God, eventually moving from the Kingdom of heaven to the Kingdom of God. He showed us how to live reasonably happy in this life and eternally happy in the next. His Son, Jesus Christ, was the bravest, most honorable, wisest light ever to come into the world. But we nailed him to a cross. And I know enough about the world and enough about the Gospel to know that we’d do it again today if he ever showed his face.

God really loved His Son. He will send those who reject His Son to hell. Even more: He wants to send those who reject His Son to hell.

Now you’re going to stand there and say, “I would never worship a God like that!” But if you die today in your sin (that is in your rejection of Christ) you will beg to worship Him, but that begging will be the music of hell in His ears.

My point is you don’t know who you are messing with. The primary reason we come to God is out of fear. And we are so right to fear Him. But once we do come to Him, then we see all his majesty and glory and He is so eager to share that with us. It’s why he made us.

But what exactly is hell? It is simply wanting what you cannot have forever. Don’t you get it? Once you see God, all this atheist crap goes out the window. You were created to seek pleasure. God is what you are looking for. All the pleasures of this life are just surrogates for what you really want. You think an opiate high is good. You think an orgasm is good. You think a cheeseburger from…wherever is good when you’re really hungry. You think that “A” you got in that really hard class was good. But all of that is only a representation in this physical world of the real pleasure that we have in the Kingdom of God eternally. We were created to seek that pleasure.

When you die and your soul, your consciousness, is thrown into a dark void where you exist alone, for eternity with the full knowledge that you really are separated from God who really is real. You are in hell—and it never ever ends. Because you are not in time any longer, it never ceases to be imposed on your consciousness. You will beg to be destroyed, but because you have rejected the Son of God, your begging will be like music to The Father.

IMHO
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14-03-2012, 01:53 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 01:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  Hell has nothing to do with Justice. That should be obvious. Hell is eternal, because time is an illusory part of this physical universe. ‘nough said on that.

There are three fates that await a person upon death. 1. They will go to the kingdom of heaven. That is a lucid spiritual plane where an individual is allowed a much greater level of creative powers. Very much like a lucid dream. But if one has not transformed into the spirit of Christ there is no point in that person going to the Kingdom of heaven. They simply wouldn’t know what to do with it. Kind of like going to a feed lot, opening the gate and saying to the cows, “You’re free!”

2. For those that have not been reborn into the spirit of Christ, they are simply destroyed. That’s it. Just like all the seeds of all the plants that never become plants themselves. They had a purpose; they didn’t bring it to fruition; they are simply destroyed.

But (#3) for those who reject Christ. In other words, they know who Christ is; they know what he represents; they have studied all the arguments and still turn their back on God and Christ; those folks are sent to hell—forever. Their suffering is a pleasure to God. It has nothing to do with justice.

Let me wake you up to a little bit of truth regarding The Father. You are talking about a being that created the insect kingdom. He created animals with big teeth to eat the flesh of other animals. He incarnates souls into birth defected humans. He let Hitler have an easy death, along with his girlfriend and his dog. Countless human beings are slaughtered in front of Him every day, and he does nothing to stop it. He lets children and innocent animals starve to death. Do you really think He has a problem with hell?

On the other hand, he also sent his Son (whatever that means is another conversation) so that we could see how to be reconciled to God, eventually moving from the Kingdom of heaven to the Kingdom of God. He showed us how to live reasonably happy in this life and eternally happy in the next. His Son, Jesus Christ, was the bravest, most honorable, wisest light ever to come into the world. But we nailed him to a cross. And I know enough about the world and enough about the Gospel to know that we’d do it again today if he ever showed his face.

God really loved His Son. He will send those who reject His Son to hell. Even more: He wants to send those who reject His Son to hell.

Now you’re going to stand there and say, “I would never worship a God like that!” But if you die today in your sin (that is in your rejection of Christ) you will beg to worship Him, but that begging will be the music of hell in His ears.

My point is you don’t know who you are messing with. The primary reason we come to God is out of fear. And we are so right to fear Him. But once we do come to Him, then we see all his majesty and glory and He is so eager to share that with us. It’s why he made us.

But what exactly is hell? It is simply wanting what you cannot have forever. Don’t you get it? Once you see God, all this atheist crap goes out the window. You were created to seek pleasure. God is what you are looking for. All the pleasures of this life are just surrogates for what you really want. You think an opiate high is good. You think an orgasm is good. You think a cheeseburger from…wherever is good when you’re really hungry. You think that “A” you got in that really hard class was good. But all of that is only a representation in this physical world of the real pleasure that we have in the Kingdom of God eternally. We were created to seek that pleasure.

When you die and your soul, your consciousness, is thrown into a dark void where you exist alone, for eternity with the full knowledge that you really are separated from God who really is real. You are in hell—and it never ever ends. Because you are not in time any longer, it never ceases to be imposed on your consciousness. You will beg to be destroyed, but because you have rejected the Son of God, your begging will be like music to The Father.

IMHO

What is the source of all these beliefs and opinions?
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14-03-2012, 02:03 AM
 
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 01:53 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What is the source of all these beliefs and opinions?

The three fates come from Jesus' teachings in The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That God enjoys sending people to hell is a logical conclusion. It's not justice; therefore, it must be pleasure since God wouldn't be forced to do anything by any outside influence.

The speculation as to what hell is comes from the logical necessity of God being the source of our pleasure, and then considering the simplest form of hell that can be imagined that is in keeping with the symbolism Jesus uses to describe it.
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14-03-2012, 02:18 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 02:03 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(14-03-2012 01:53 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What is the source of all these beliefs and opinions?

The three fates come from Jesus' teachings in The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That God enjoys sending people to hell is a logical conclusion. It's not justice; therefore, it must be pleasure since God wouldn't be forced to do anything by any outside influence.

The speculation as to what hell is comes from the logical necessity of God being the source of our pleasure, and then considering the simplest form of hell that can be imagined that is in keeping with the symbolism Jesus uses to describe it.

This "Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ" has been written by your good self. As best I can gather, it is based on your interpretation of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke , John and Thomas. You obviously consider yourself an authority on these gospels. Interesting. Who, in your authoritative opinion, wrote these five gospels? Would you also share your bibliography of your book with us so that we can assess how well researched your project is?
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