Concept of Hell
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14-03-2012, 02:35 AM
 
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 02:18 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  This "Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ" has been written by your good self. As best I can gather, it is based on your interpretation of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke , John and Thomas. You obviously consider yourself an authority on these gospels. Interesting. Who, in your authoritative opinion, wrote these five gospels? Would you also share your bibliography of your book with us so that we can assess how well researched your project is?

The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ was written by me, yes. It's an inspired synthesis of the four New Testament Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas. As to who wrote the five original Gospels, who knows? Thomas is probably a forgery, and the other Gospels are of unknown authorship.

However, they do contain the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And what "bibliography" are you talking about? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas. That's it. If you want to assess the book, buy it and read it.

By the way, you never answered my question: Are you a medical doctor? Where did you go to medical school? What kind of medical doctor are you (internal med, family med, cardiothoracic surgeon, what?). And what's your undergraduate degree in? Is it in theology?
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14-03-2012, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 14-03-2012 03:34 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 02:35 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(14-03-2012 02:18 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  This "Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ" has been written by your good self. As best I can gather, it is based on your interpretation of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke , John and Thomas. You obviously consider yourself an authority on these gospels. Interesting. Who, in your authoritative opinion, wrote these five gospels? Would you also share your bibliography of your book with us so that we can assess how well researched your project is?

The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ was written by me, yes. It's an inspired synthesis of the four New Testament Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas. As to who wrote the five original Gospels, who knows? Thomas is probably a forgery, and the other Gospels are of unknown authorship.

However, they do contain the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And what "bibliography" are you talking about? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas. That's it. If you want to assess the book, buy it and read it.

By the way, you never answered my question: Are you a medical doctor? Where did you go to medical school? What kind of medical doctor are you (internal med, family med, cardiothoracic surgeon, what?). And what's your undergraduate degree in? Is it in theology?

Oops! As I suspected! You have no idea who wrote the gospels. How can you possibly assume they contain "the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" as you don't know who the authors were, or what their relation to Jesus was?

Oh dear! Your book has no bibliography! So your "gospel" consists entirely of your own opinions about a book written by you don't know who! Is it any wonder you are rarely taken seriously in this forum?

Why, pray tell, would I or anyone else, be interested in your bizarre tirades, particularly as you have no legitimate sources to back them up? Your sole source for legitimacy is your brashness, and, as I think you have discovered, brashness does not grant you creedence in a forum such as this.

Yes, I am a medical doctor. I have a science degree, plus a bachelor of medicine and surgery, so I have 3 degrees. I have also had 20 years experience helping my patients achieve health and happiness. I studied at the University of Tasmania ( the island at the bottom of mainland Australia). I have spent 7 years worth of my spare time studying the history of the bible and early Christianity. I too have written a book. I have over 100 books in my bibliography, many of which I've read 3 or 4 times, plus many hundreds of web page references. Despite this, I do not think my opinions are necessarily the truth. I present them to the public for consideration on their merits. I still have a lot to learn, and always will have, so am interested in everyone's opinions.


(14-03-2012 02:35 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(14-03-2012 02:18 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  This "Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ" has been written by your good self. As best I can gather, it is based on your interpretation of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke , John and Thomas. You obviously consider yourself an authority on these gospels. Interesting. Who, in your authoritative opinion, wrote these five gospels? Would you also share your bibliography of your book with us so that we can assess how well researched your project is?

The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ was written by me, yes. It's an inspired synthesis of the four New Testament Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas. As to who wrote the five original Gospels, who knows? Thomas is probably a forgery, and the other Gospels are of unknown authorship.


However, they do contain the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And what "bibliography" are you talking about? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas. That's it. If you want to assess the book, buy it and read it.

By the way, you never answered my question: Are you a medical doctor? Where did you go to medical school? What kind of medical doctor are you (internal med, family med, cardiothoracic surgeon, what?). And what's your undergraduate degree in? Is it in theology?
Oops! As I suspected! You have no idea who wrote the gospels. How can you possibly assume they contain "the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" as you don't know who the authors were, or what their relation to Jesus was?

Oh dear! Your book has no bibliography! So your "gospel" consists entirely of your own opinions about a book written by you don't know who! Is it any wonder you are rarely taken seriously in this forum?

Why, pray tell, would I or anyone else, be interested in your bizarre tirades, particularly as you have no legitimate sources to back them up? Your sole source for legitimacy is your brashness, and, as I think you have discovered, brashness does not grant you creedence in a forum such as this.

Yes, I am a medical doctor. I have a science degree, plus a bachelor of medicine and surgery, so I have 3 degrees. I have also had 20 years experience helping my patients achieve health and happiness. I studied at the University of Tasmania ( the island at the bottom of mainland Australia). I have spent 7 years worth of my spare time studying the history of the bible and early Christianity. I too have written a book. I have over 100 books in my bibliography, many of which I've read 3 or 4 times, plus many hundreds of web page references. Despite this, I do not think my opinions are necessarily the truth. I present them to the public for consideration on their merits. I still have a lot to learn, and always will have, so am interested in everyone's opinions.
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14-03-2012, 06:55 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
(13-03-2012 08:36 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  I'm sure in heaven, since it's "perfect", they get you to the point where you have no outside desire, and you live in true eternal bliss. God makes it so that you never get bored.

Oh, now I see! Heaven is an opium den!

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14-03-2012, 07:56 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
(13-03-2012 08:36 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  Really? I'm not a deep Pastafarian, but I was gonna say that FSM Hell is that they give you sauce littered with Habanero peppers, and you have an insatiable hunger. And you must eat the sauce. lol, I like that one Big Grin

You see, that would be my Pastafarian heaven. I love the burn of habaneros. The first time I ate one I was really young and my entire mouth went numb. I vowed never to touch them again. That didn't work. I like them now.

So, now you know. I'm right and you're wrong. You are so going to eternity without your spaghetti. Tongue

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14-03-2012, 08:17 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
(13-03-2012 06:50 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  The concept of Hell is that those who are not saved (I'm talking Christians here, but in general, I guess as well, sort of) or commit enough sins should face eternal punishment. Is that a correct statement? I haven't researched the topic enough to get a great definition on it, but the words that stand out to me are "eternal punishment", which I know I hear often.

In the religion of Christianity you have different concepts. I'll touch on the three big ones:

1) Catholicism - Believe that you have to ask for salvation and continually ask for forgiveness for sins. If you are saved and die, then you go to Purgatory where you are purged from your remaining sins. If you are not saved, then you go to hell.

2) Arminianism - You ask for salvation and all past, present, and future sins are forgiven. You are to still ask for forgiveness for sins, but there isn't much emphasis on this. If you are saved, you go to heaven when you die. If you are not saved, you go to hell.

3) Calvinism - Only certain people are chosen for salvation by God. Their sins where forgiven from the beginning by the future atonement of Christ. You are to ask for forgiveness, but this for mending earthly relationships and for a better understanding of God's plan revealed to you via prayer. When an elect person dies, they do to heaven. When a non-elect person dies, they go to hell.

Quote:I would argue that nothing you do as a human being is worthy of eternal punishment. The concept of infinity is much too large to grasp for a human.

If I murder someone, I might receive a long (relative to human thinking) punishment, but the concept of infinite punishment is insane.

Hitler does not deserve eternal punishment. If I tortured everyone in the most horrible way on this planet, all 7 billion or so of us, for 1000 years, that does not warrant eternal punishment.

Sure, you could say, just for our purposes, ten thousand years of harsher punishment per person (that's a bit much as well, well at least, I'm not going to go into how much punishment you can say exactly, but that's not my point) that you tortured. You could even say a million years for each person, you could say as much as you want. Still, that is incredibly finite, infinite is on a whole new level.

Take that time duration, then increase it a thousand fold. Put that new number to its own power. Take the factorial (ok, getting nerdy here Tongue). My point is, you are much too finite to ever be able to do anything worthy of something infinite.

This has been a major debate and grievance towards Christianity. This would also explain why Christians preach and have others accept salvation. Most traditional Christians say that it's the person's fault that they chose eternal damnation because they had the chance to get out of it while here on earth. They justify it by saying that God cannot be in the presence of sin and our freewill caused us to sin.

My viewpoint is much more to the point and somewhat harsh. God simply didn't choose some for salvation. It was by God's grace that He chose some for eternal salvation. I believe in total human depravity, so this means, that by us (humanity alone) we are in no way worthy, or will ever be worthy, of salvation. God has to act on us, and it is solely by His grace that some are saved.

These are the Christian justifications for eternal punishment.

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14-03-2012, 08:22 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
So, KC, do you like god?

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14-03-2012, 09:02 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 08:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  So, KC, do you like god?

My personal morality disagrees with Him in instances; however, I accept the fact that He's sovereign over us and that His morality is greater than ours; even if I can't see it.

So, honestly, there are times that I do not like God and certain outcomes, but my point of view and relative morality are entirely finite as opposed to the infinity of God.

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14-03-2012, 09:53 AM
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 09:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(14-03-2012 08:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  So, KC, do you like god?

My personal morality disagrees with Him in instances; however, I accept the fact that He's sovereign over us and that His morality is greater than ours; even if I can't see it.

So, honestly, there are times that I do not like God and certain outcomes, but my point of view and relative morality are entirely finite as opposed to the infinity of God.


Well, in my finite world, I cannot worship anyone I don't like. And, just assuming god actually exists, I sure don't like him at all.

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14-03-2012, 11:42 AM
 
RE: Concept of Hell
(14-03-2012 03:31 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Oops! As I suspected! You have no idea who wrote the gospels. How can you possibly assume they contain "the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" as you don't know who the authors were, or what their relation to Jesus was?

Because of what they say.

Quote:Oh dear! Your book has no bibliography! So your "gospel" consists entirely of your own opinions about a book written by you don't know who! Is it any wonder you are rarely taken seriously in this forum?

I’m not sure how many ways I can tell you this: The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ is an inspired synthesis of the four New Testament Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it’s not a book of opinions.

Quote:Why, pray tell, would I or anyone else, be interested in your bizarre tirades, particularly as you have no legitimate sources to back them up? Your sole source for legitimacy is your brashness, and, as I think you have discovered, brashness does not grant you creedence in a forum such as this.

Why do you do that? Why do you try to gather other people around you to make a point? Like now, you’re speaking again for the entire forum, as if somehow they elected you to be their speaker.

Be that as it may, I can’t tell you why you are interested in my tirades, but apparently you are, ‘cuz here we are discussing them.

Quote:Yes, I am a medical doctor. I have a science degree, plus a bachelor of medicine and surgery, so I have 3 degrees. I have also had 20 years experience helping my patients achieve health and happiness. I studied at the University of Tasmania ( the island at the bottom of mainland Australia).

I’m not sure how a medical doctor has any particular qualification in helping patients be “happy.” But I’ll leave that alone at this time. And to the readers: In Australia, the medical system is a bit different than the United States. I had to look it up, myself.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Becoming_a_...Australia

I do find something disturbing, however: On your website you have a picture of you and your patient/girlfriend. In the U.S. that kind of relationship is unethical. And even if she's a former patient, why would you refer to her as a "patient"? Also, you say you share your anti-Christian beliefs with your patients; that, too, would be considered unethical in the U.S. You seem to have an issues with boundaries. I realize you're an atheist, but don't you feel you might be abusing the power you have over sick people to push an ideology that is better left out of the arena until they are well enough to make independent decisions?

Quote: I have spent 7 years worth of my spare time studying the history of the bible and early Christianity. I too have written a book. I have over 100 books in my bibliography, many of which I've read 3 or 4 times, plus many hundreds of web page references.

Wow. 3 or even 4! That’s great. And if you have written a book, where is it?

Quote: Despite this, I do not think my opinions are necessarily the truth.

Then why read it? Even you don’t think it’s true. All those books in your bibliography, some read multiple times, and you still can't find the truth. That's called being lost, my dear Tasmanian.

By the way, Kudos on the Tasmanian Devil, one of the most precious animals God ever put on this earth. Sleepy

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But I digress.

Quote:I present them to the public for consideration on their merits. I still have a lot to learn, and always will have, so am interested in everyone's opinions.

Well, my opinion is that if you don’t put your faith in Jesus Christ before you die, you will either be destroyed, or in your case, since you know better, be cast into hell.

(14-03-2012 09:53 AM)Dom Wrote:  Well, in my finite world, I cannot worship anyone I don't like. And, just assuming god actually exists, I sure don't like him at all.

What the hell does "like" have to do with anything? (no pun intended). Do you really think you have a choice in whether or not you will worship God? If God doesn't exist, you have no choice. If God does exist, you have no choice. God is God.

@ Kingschosen

Personallyl, I don't think the Calvanist revelation of God is accurate in regards to election, not if hell exists. And we know it does, because Jesus talks about it. I think election would make absolute sense except for hell. And perhaps we have to think beyond election because of it.

I have tried to address you on this, but you seem to want to avoid the discussion. The crux being: Can God make a freewill being?

My contention is that he can, even though that requires him to paradoxically relenquish omnipotentce and omniscience in the process, at least for that particular being.

I would assume Calvanists do not believe he can (which makes him incapable in that regard and therefore not omnipotent), or they believe he won't (in which case there is no love between man and God. In fact, humans end up with the spiritual force of a plant).
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14-03-2012, 12:41 PM
RE: Concept of Hell
"Hell" is one of the things that allow christianity to thrive.
Since if you don't believe in heaven, people can scare you into belief by saying that you will burn forever if you don't believe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager summarizes this.

There are of course problems with hell:
1. People have eternal life in hell. This contradicts the whole "eternal life" idea.

2. Hell does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament.

3. Those preaching about hell believes that they are saved from it, so for them it can just as well be as bad as possible.

http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm
Some thoughts about hell.

http://30ce.com/helltoday.htm
Pope John Paul II takes distance from the though of a literal fiery hell.


I myself have never believed in a literal fiery hell. Not even once.
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