Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
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11-09-2014, 07:21 PM
Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
I will be granting that both the new born and unborn baby have a right to life even though its unsubstantiated. It works either way.

BUT, does the newborn have a right to life at the expense of the mothers body? No matter what the situation and length of time without her consent?

If not, then you have to conclude that the unborn baby doesn't either.
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Premise 1: An unborn baby is equal to a new born baby

Premise 2: A newborn baby does not have the right to use the mothers body to keep it alive no matter what and no matter how long IF the mother does not want it to. This means that if it needs an organ or something from the mothers body, it does not have the right to do so. Even in cases of breast milk, the mother is NOT obliged to feed the baby.
Premise 3: An unborn baby is equal to an newborn baby

Conclusion: Therefore, an unborn baby cannot use the mothers body without her consent, even in cases of pregnancy.

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Consent is to sex is not consent to pregnancy, and consent to pregnancy IS NOT consent to remaining pregnant.

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11-09-2014, 07:42 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2014 12:20 AM by Minimalist.)
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
It is of no concern to me if some woman I have never met wants or does not want to have a baby.

It is her choice.

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11-09-2014, 07:44 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(11-09-2014 07:21 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  I will be granting that both the new born and unborn baby have a right to life even though its unsubstantiated. It works either way.

BUT, does the newborn have a right to life at the expense of the mothers body? No matter what the situation and length of time without her consent?

If not, then you have to conclude that the unborn baby doesn't either.
----------------------------------
Premise 1: An unborn baby is equal to a new born baby

Premise 2: A newborn baby does not have the right to use the mothers body to keep it alive no matter what and no matter how long IF the mother does not want it to. This means that if it needs an organ or something from the mothers body, it does not have the right to do so. Even in cases of breast milk, the mother is NOT obliged to feed the baby.
Premise 3: An unborn baby is equal to an newborn baby

Conclusion: Therefore, an unborn baby cannot use the mothers body without her consent, even in cases of pregnancy.

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Consent is to sex is not consent to pregnancy, and consent to pregnancy IS NOT consent to remaining pregnant.

Most here will disagree with your first premise. I suggest you make it more explicit - define "unborn baby".

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11-09-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
I would like to hear from the testicles on this issue...

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11-09-2014, 07:59 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2014 08:28 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
A fetus is no more a "baby" than it is an "unborn adolescent", or an "unborn adult", or an "unborn elderly person". ((Use of emotionally overlaid terms ("baby" ... who in their right mind would want to harm a "baby") .... in the discussion, is not useful, or productive.)) It's a potential baby. A clump of cells with no neural tube, and no brain is a potential person, not an actual person. An unfertilized egg is a potential person. The first sperm cell reaching an oocyte is not the one that fertilizes it. The first one there, begins the preparation process so the egg will allow one of the ones to follow, in. There is no definition of "conception" possible. It's a long complex process. "Moment of conception" is a completely false notion.

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11-09-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
Premise 1 makes me not want to read the rest of your OP.

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11-09-2014, 08:53 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
Its granting them that they are equal. I also said even if they were NOT equal, it would still work. Why? Because you would be giving special rights to something that isn't equal to you. And if you DO consider it equal, then you cannot give the unborn "baby" special rights.


So, whether its a person is irrelevant.


So, again, pro-lifers tend to say "but its a person". Even IF that was the case, it would not help their case at all.

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11-09-2014, 08:56 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
I don't get it, how is saying a clump of cells is not equal to me giving that clump of cells special treatment? Sorry, having a hard time understanding what it is you're getting at.

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11-09-2014, 09:04 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
I dunno...

This is always going to be a grey area, unless science can establish the point at which a fetus becomes a sentient being, capable of thought, emotion etc...

Somehow I doubt we'll establish that just by talking about it.

But, in the early stages, a fetus/embryo is nothing more than a microscopic cluster of cells, its as the pregnancy progresses that things get complicated.

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11-09-2014, 09:07 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
Sorry, I had it wrong. I will delete it and repost my last comment here.

What I meant was that you don't even have to explain all the science behind whether a fetus is a person or not.

Pro-lifers tend to fight for the idea that a fetus is indeed equal to a newborn baby, correct? Well, you can actually grant them that premise and still win the argument. Make sense?

So, IF they eventually say "fine, its not a person and isn't equal", well you have gained extra points in the debate. You can then ask them "if its not equal, then what is it"


See the point? You are just granting them the first premise they fight for and still kicking their ass. Its a philosophical deductive argument. It just shows that they have lost even fi it turns out to be true that a fetus is a person.


See my point?

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