Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
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15-09-2014, 09:05 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(15-09-2014 06:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-09-2014 04:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  Since that point has been an integral part of the abortion debate for years, I didn't think it needed spelling out.
I'm not going to assume your own position on the debate. You are an individual with your own ideas and thoughts.
If we don't lay our cards on the table but instead leave unstated assumptions then we really aren't leading towards an informed discussion.

(15-09-2014 04:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  But I'm done here - your lack of empathy
It's not about my own empathy. I am not looking to force myself, my opinions, my emotions onto other people. I am not the one looking to justify a use of force against a pregnant woman.

If we are using force against a pregnant woman because we feel sad about what what she is doing, then we are overstepping our personal boundaries (IMO).

What I am trying to do is to see what reasons atheist, pro-choicers have to:
1: allow abortions
2: want to force a pregnant woman not to abort after a certain time
3: justify how their position is any different from that of the Catholics (other than an arbitrary judgement on when a "person" begins)


So far you have not offered a valid reason for your position. You've cited personhood (which is circular reasoning and arbitrary)
You've cited pain (which can work against you if the birthing process is more painful than abortion and also if a method of abortion is established that is painless to an unborn.
You've cited "independant organism" but a person on an iron lung or on dialysis or with a pacemaker is still a person, right?

Instead of addressing the issues you resort to attacking me, calling me a liberal and unempathetic.

Your position is incoherent.

You allow that a fetus at any stage is a person.
You agree that killing persons is bad for society.
You don't value human life except insofar as it affects you.
You claim there is no such thing as rights.
You claim it is more important to not use force on the woman.

Why not use force? It violates her rights? But people have no rights.
The fetus is a person. Killing persons is bad for society. Not using force against the woman is a higher value than not killing a person?

You are either a sociopath or a libertarian - it's hard to tell the difference.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-09-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
I just told you, the point of my argument is that it doesn't matter. The argument still stands regardless of its rights.

It DOESN'T matter when it becomes a human. For the sake of argument I am giving it a right to life the second the egg is fertilized.

Now tell me, is it EVER okay to force a woman to give up her body for somebody else against her consent? Also, if she consents to it, can she back out at anytime? No matter how long they need her for. If not, then you have to conclude that if an unborn baby is equal to a human (or not) why are you giving them extra rights to use the mothers body and letting her back out?
Read:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil1...homson.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion


And this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHah6TtYm1Q

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15-09-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(15-09-2014 09:10 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  I just told you, the point of my argument is that it doesn't matter. The argument still stands regardless of its rights.

It DOESN'T matter when it becomes a human. For the sake of argument I am giving it a right to life the second the egg is fertilized.

Now tell me, is it EVER okay to force a woman to give up her body for somebody else against her consent? Also, if she consents to it, can she back out at anytime? No matter how long they need her for. If not, then you have to conclude that if an unborn baby is equal to a human (or not) why are you giving them extra rights to use the mothers body and letting her back out?
Read:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil1...homson.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion


And this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHah6TtYm1Q

Oh, great, another fucking sociopathic libertard. Dodgy

What is it with you guys? You entirely lack empathy, the ability to see beyond your childish ideology, and the willingness to listen.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2014, 12:39 AM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2014 12:51 AM by Stevil.)
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your position is incoherent.

You allow that a fetus at any stage is a person.
You agree that killing persons is bad for society.
You don't value human life except insofar as it affects you.
You claim there is no such thing as rights.
You claim it is more important to not use force on the woman.
To clarify my position
The definition of a "person" is arbitrary and irrelevant.
I don't hold human life to an almost "sacred" standard.
I consider things my business when they impact me or my loved ones.
I claim there is no such thing as rights.
I claim that I have no personal incentive to use force on the woman thus I have no incentive to give my government and police the obligation to use force on the woman.

(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Why not use force? It violates her rights? But people have no rights.
I have no personal incentive to use force on the woman. If I allow my government to use force on people when there is no incentive to do so, then what is to stop government using force on me willynilly without meaningful justification? I don't want to set a precedent. I don't want to give government a blank cheque to exert force whenever it pleases them.

(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  The fetus is a person. Killing persons is bad for society. Not using force against the woman is a higher value than not killing a person?
This is not my terminology. "person" is meaningless, "bad" is meaningless. I don't judge value on things unless it impacts me because otherwise I am meddling in other people's business. What incentive do I have to stick my nose into other people's business?
(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are either a sociopath or a libertarian - it's hard to tell the difference.
There is really no point in trying to focus on me. My emotions, my wants and dislikes don't come into it. I am trying to come up with a system which is consistent and objective and independent of the wants and desires and emotions and beliefs of the individual. I am trying to avoid forcing my own opinions onto others. I certainly can't justify myself using force on others when they are doing things that don't impact me. It is beside the point whether I agree with what they are doing. It is beside the point whether what they are doing invokes an emotional response in me. My emotional response is my problem not theirs.
In some Arab states the men force women to hide themselves under sheets because the men get sexually excited about the sight of a woman. They are making their own emotional response the problem of the woman. I see it as the man's problem, not the woman's.
It's interesting though.
I'm the one promoting refrain from instigating violence against a pregnant woman. You are the one promoting use of violence against a pregnant woman in support of your own ideology and it is you who accuses me of being a sociopath.
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16-09-2014, 01:08 AM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(15-09-2014 09:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-09-2014 09:10 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  I just told you, the point of my argument is that it doesn't matter. The argument still stands regardless of its rights.

It DOESN'T matter when it becomes a human. For the sake of argument I am giving it a right to life the second the egg is fertilized.

Now tell me, is it EVER okay to force a woman to give up her body for somebody else against her consent? Also, if she consents to it, can she back out at anytime? No matter how long they need her for. If not, then you have to conclude that if an unborn baby is equal to a human (or not) why are you giving them extra rights to use the mothers body and letting her back out?
Read:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil1...homson.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion


And this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHah6TtYm1Q

Oh, great, another fucking sociopathic libertard. Dodgy

What is it with you guys? You entirely lack empathy, the ability to see beyond your childish ideology, and the willingness to listen.

So, is it wrong for a woman to deny giving up her body when her child needs an organ transplant?

I never said I would approve, but she does have the right. Your argument is because "I don't like it"


Oh, damn. You got me.

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16-09-2014, 03:12 AM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
Quick question for those who are arguing against a woman's right to her own body: Do you approve of, or disapprove of, postmortem organ donation?

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16-09-2014, 05:24 AM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(16-09-2014 12:39 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your position is incoherent.

You allow that a fetus at any stage is a person.
You agree that killing persons is bad for society.
You don't value human life except insofar as it affects you.
You claim there is no such thing as rights.
You claim it is more important to not use force on the woman.
To clarify my position
The definition of a "person" is arbitrary and irrelevant.
I don't hold human life to an almost "sacred" standard.
I consider things my business when they impact me or my loved ones.
I claim there is no such thing as rights.
I claim that I have no personal incentive to use force on the woman thus I have no incentive to give my government and police the obligation to use force on the woman.

(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Why not use force? It violates her rights? But people have no rights.
I have no personal incentive to use force on the woman. If I allow my government to use force on people when there is no incentive to do so, then what is to stop government using force on me willynilly without meaningful justification? I don't want to set a precedent. I don't want to give government a blank cheque to exert force whenever it pleases them.

(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  The fetus is a person. Killing persons is bad for society. Not using force against the woman is a higher value than not killing a person?
This is not my terminology. "person" is meaningless, "bad" is meaningless. I don't judge value on things unless it impacts me because otherwise I am meddling in other people's business. What incentive do I have to stick my nose into other people's business?
(15-09-2014 09:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are either a sociopath or a libertarian - it's hard to tell the difference.
There is really no point in trying to focus on me. My emotions, my wants and dislikes don't come into it. I am trying to come up with a system which is consistent and objective and independent of the wants and desires and emotions and beliefs of the individual. I am trying to avoid forcing my own opinions onto others. I certainly can't justify myself using force on others when they are doing things that don't impact me. It is beside the point whether I agree with what they are doing. It is beside the point whether what they are doing invokes an emotional response in me. My emotional response is my problem not theirs.
In some Arab states the men force women to hide themselves under sheets because the men get sexually excited about the sight of a woman. They are making their own emotional response the problem of the woman. I see it as the man's problem, not the woman's.
It's interesting though.
I'm the one promoting refrain from instigating violence against a pregnant woman. You are the one promoting use of violence against a pregnant woman in support of your own ideology and it is you who accuses me of being a sociopath.

When the fetus becomes a person is the central point of the issue.

Your rants about using force are childish. The issue is more complex than you are able to see, blinded as you are by libertard cant.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2014, 05:25 AM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(16-09-2014 01:08 AM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  
(15-09-2014 09:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, great, another fucking sociopathic libertard. Dodgy

What is it with you guys? You entirely lack empathy, the ability to see beyond your childish ideology, and the willingness to listen.

So, is it wrong for a woman to deny giving up her body when her child needs an organ transplant?

I never said I would approve, but she does have the right. Your argument is because "I don't like it"


Oh, damn. You got me.

That has precisely nothing to do with the discussion.

Thank you for your ignorant, infantile contribution. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2014, 05:26 AM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(16-09-2014 03:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Quick question for those who are arguing against a woman's right to her own body: Do you approve of, or disapprove of, postmortem organ donation?

I don't see anyone making that argument. Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(15-09-2014 04:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  However, that still overrides the woman's choice.
How so?

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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