Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
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11-09-2014, 10:11 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
Again, it would be a naturalistic fallacy. Where are all these obligations coming from? They are not self evident.


But again, its a fallacy of adverse consequence.


What you call the baby is irrelevant because its about rights. If the newborn baby CANNOT use the mothers body without her consent no matter how long, what for, etc, then the unborn baby can't either. Especially if we grant a pro-lifer the idea that they both equal.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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11-09-2014, 10:12 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
I need a fucking beer...

All these big words, making my head hurt.

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11-09-2014, 10:18 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(11-09-2014 10:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-09-2014 07:21 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  BUT, does the newborn have a right to life at the expense of the mothers body?
Who is the definer of rights?
Am I obligated to abide by these rights?
Does this give me the obligation to force the mother down the righteous path?

Is that my purpose in life, to be the enforcer of rights?

I have the perfect video series for you. If you would watch it and tell me what you think, I hope you would understand where I am coming from then.

Ill post the link here:

P1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY

P2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2Rq4HJBxw

P3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw4l1w0rkjs

P4:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGyygiXMzRk

P5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yT4RZy1t3s

P6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rv-4aUbZxQ

P7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqzW0eHzDSQ

P8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL66zx_6No

P9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUhReMT5uqA

P10: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuiazbyOSqQ

P11: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOotE9_OGGs

P12: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzD9P-9sj4M

You do not have to watch all of them, but he gets into the idea of rights and how they are innate… in a non religious, spiritual/woo way.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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11-09-2014, 10:22 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
Surely, anyone who understands the birds and the bees knows that having sex carries the possibility that pregnancy might occur... As far as I'm concerned, if you consent to sex, you are consenting to all the risks that come with sex, and that includes pregnancy. You can minimize those risks, but you can't eliminate them completely. If you absolutely do not want to get pregnant, then avoid sex altogether.

If someone complains that they're pregnant, and wish they weren't after having sex in full knowledge that there was a chance of pregnancy, then they're a dumb shit... In that case, I do not believe anyone has the right to just end a life.

Its not the fetus' fault its parents were too dumb to use contraception.

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11-09-2014, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2014 10:54 PM by Just Another Atheist.)
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
Again, naturalistic fallacy. Why are you all of a sudden obligated to go through a pregnancy? Where is this coming from?

Also, why is that if you take contraceptives and STILL get pregnant you are allowed an abortion? Or rape cases? The fetus did not "choose" to come into existence, in both cases the fetus was forced in.

Nobody is blaming the fetus. Where is THIS coming from? Im saying the fetus (or baby) does not have a right to life by using the mothers body without her consent no matter how long, or whatever. But both the fetus and newborn do have the right to life, but like the newborn, it DOES NOT HAVE the right to life at the expense of the mothers body without her consent.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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11-09-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  Surely, anyone who understands the birds and the bees knows that having sex carries the possibility that pregnancy might occur...
And a well educated person will understand the risks and the measures that can be taken to prevent pregnancy and the measure that can be taken to terminate a pregnancy.
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  As far as I'm concerned, if you consent to sex, you are consenting to all the risks that come with sex, and that includes pregnancy. You can minimize those risks, but you can't eliminate them completely. If you absolutely do not want to get pregnant, then avoid sex altogether.
fine, but once they are pregnant, they still have the option of terminating it, they understand the risks and they make an informed decision.
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  If someone complains that they're pregnant, and wish they weren't after having sex in full knowledge that there was a chance of pregnancy, then
Then they have the option of abortion.
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  I do not believe anyone has the right to just end a life.
It's fine for you to have your beliefs but if you use that as justification for forcing people to conform to your own beliefs then you are presenting an aggressive threat. You want to hide behind law and the police. If you didn't have police to enforce your beliefs, would you take it upon yourself to march upto a pregnant woman and forcibly stop her from having an abortion?
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11-09-2014, 11:18 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(11-09-2014 10:35 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Again, naturalistic fallacy. Why are you all of a sudden obligated to go through a pregnancy? Where is this coming from?

Also, why is that if you take contraceptives and STILL get pregnant you are allowed an abortion? Or rape cases? The fetus did not "choose" to come into existence, in both cases the fetus was forced in.

Nobody is blaming the fetus. Where is THIS coming from? Im saying the fetus (or baby) does not have a right to life by using the mothers body without her consent no matter how long, or whatever. But both the fetus and newborn do have the right to life, but like the newborn, it DOES NOT HAVE the right to life at the expense of the mothers body without her consent.

I say that after a certain point in the pregnancy, the fetus does have the right to life.

Where that point is, is the grey area I was talking about... But I do think there is a point in the pregnancy where termination would be murder.

I know you'll just say it's a naturalistic fallacy or whatever, but I don't care... After enough time has elapsed, that cluster of cells develops into a human being... And I don't give a shit about whether or not it has the "right" to use the mother's body.

The idea that it needs some kind of permission to exist is just complete bullshit to me...

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11-09-2014, 11:28 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
It has the right to a mothers body any way. We are pretending that the fetus is indeed a person with equal rights to a human. Thats the assumption. This means it has a right to life either way. I grant them that. BUT like every other human out there, they do NOT have a right to life at the expense of somebody else without there consent.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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11-09-2014, 11:40 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(11-09-2014 11:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  Surely, anyone who understands the birds and the bees knows that having sex carries the possibility that pregnancy might occur...
And a well educated person will understand the risks and the measures that can be taken to prevent pregnancy and the measure that can be taken to terminate a pregnancy.
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  As far as I'm concerned, if you consent to sex, you are consenting to all the risks that come with sex, and that includes pregnancy. You can minimize those risks, but you can't eliminate them completely. If you absolutely do not want to get pregnant, then avoid sex altogether.
fine, but once they are pregnant, they still have the option of terminating it, they understand the risks and they make an informed decision.
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  If someone complains that they're pregnant, and wish they weren't after having sex in full knowledge that there was a chance of pregnancy, then
Then they have the option of abortion.
(11-09-2014 10:22 PM)Sam Wrote:  I do not believe anyone has the right to just end a life.
It's fine for you to have your beliefs but if you use that as justification for forcing people to conform to your own beliefs then you are presenting an aggressive threat. You want to hide behind law and the police. If you didn't have police to enforce your beliefs, would you take it upon yourself to march upto a pregnant woman and forcibly stop her from having an abortion?

I've explained my position. I've never once said I would force my opinions on anyone.

They may have the option of abortion, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

You may be comfortable with the idea of abortion, but I'm not... For me, it's too much of a grey area concerning what point you set as the limit.

The idea of aborting a fetus simply because it's an inconvenience, or because the parents can't be arsed, to me just seems to trivialise the whole thing.

I'm fine with early abortions... But I do think there must be a cut off point.

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11-09-2014, 11:46 PM
RE: Concerning Abortion: Pro-Choice - Discussion
(11-09-2014 11:28 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  It has the right to a mothers body any way. We are pretending that the fetus is indeed a person with equal rights to a human. Thats the assumption. This means it has a right to life either way. I grant them that. BUT like every other human out there, they do NOT have a right to life at the expense of somebody else without there consent.

Well, if you're talking about pregnancies in which there's a significant risk to the mother's life, then I'd agree with you... In such cases the fetus couldn't survive anyway.

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