Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
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25-09-2012, 08:31 AM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
(25-09-2012 08:07 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 03:20 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I can't agree with you at all on this point.

Why is it ok to insult christianity but not islam?
Neither is ok. There is a difference between constructive criticism and debate vs. destructive insults. The first is acceptable, the second is not for any side.

(24-09-2012 03:20 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  After all the film link below is the most offensive thing I could find. Should we ban this?



NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ncwCETyQlk
Ban it? No. But we should condemn it.

Ridiculous ideas are open to ridicule. Islam and Christianity are both ridiculous.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-09-2012, 08:38 AM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
(25-09-2012 08:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 08:07 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Neither is ok. There is a difference between constructive criticism and debate vs. destructive insults. The first is acceptable, the second is not for any side.

Ban it? No. But we should condemn it.

Ridiculous ideas are open to ridicule. Islam and Christianity are both ridiculous.
Agreed. However, as I argued here, I believe ridiculing Islam in particular is a bad idea. Ridiculing Christianity doesn't seem to have the same complications (and neither should ridiculing Islam), so one can get away with that more easily. However, regardless, constructive debate will likely accomplish far more than ridicule in either case.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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26-09-2012, 07:23 AM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
(25-09-2012 08:38 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 08:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  Ridiculous ideas are open to ridicule. Islam and Christianity are both ridiculous.
Agreed. However, as I argued here, I believe ridiculing Islam in particular is a bad idea. Ridiculing Christianity doesn't seem to have the same complications (and neither should ridiculing Islam), so one can get away with that more easily. However, regardless, constructive debate will likely accomplish far more than ridicule in either case.

If you are going to back down, you are a pussy-ass fuck. They are going to have to learn that all caps raging IRL will earn them nothing but more ridicule.

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26-09-2012, 07:35 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2012 07:38 AM by Crusher.)
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
The whole point about these riots is that most muslims didn't see the video, they were just told a movie was made in the US that mocks mohammed and from then on the story changed by word of mouth or do you think those rioters have internet access, even if they did have internet they wouldn't want to watch it anyway because it would be "too offensive". They just imagined the video to be the most offensive video ever funded by the US because they are evil westerners and that's why they protested.

However from what I heard of muslims watching it they were offended too but they didn't feel the need to protest. Infact an imam in belgium saw it and condemned the protests, that same imam was considered to be a radical muslim and fairly dangerous in the past but now he's getting death threats because he's "working with the unbelievers".

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26-09-2012, 07:45 AM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
Actually this will work well in this thread too.

Hey Islam!

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26-09-2012, 08:58 AM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
(25-09-2012 08:38 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Agreed. However, as I argued here, I believe ridiculing Islam in particular is a bad idea. Ridiculing Christianity doesn't seem to have the same complications (and neither should ridiculing Islam), so one can get away with that more easily. However, regardless, constructive debate will likely accomplish far more than ridicule in either case.

Ridiculing Islam is a dangerous idea, sure, but I can't agree it's a bad idea. If anything, it deserves more ridicule and less respect in light of recent events.

Ridiculing Christianity no longer has the same complications, but it used to. At this point in time, Christians have just come to the understanding that people will no longer accept them killing people for not following their religion. I'd say Islam is a bit behind the times in that respect.

And, at least as far as the extremists go, I doubt constructive criticism and debate will accomplish anything. If someone actually believes portraying their prophet makes you deserving of death, very little calm and logical debate is going to be possible.

I've been appalled to read, on different forums, people actually saying we should limit freedom of speech or prosecute the filmmakers. The appropriate thing to do, when offended by a youtube video, is make a video response bitching about it. If we punish the filmmakers, I can't see that as anything but telling Muslim extremists that murdering people was the appropriate response and the filmmakers were the ones in the wrong, which is insane.

I'm also disturbed when people are talking about it being wrong to "hurt religious feelings." That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, that religion deserves respect just because it's religion.
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26-09-2012, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2012 01:20 PM by Marco Krieger.)
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
The question is, are we to afrait to deal with muslims like we do it with any other faith?
In this issue the man with the bigger stick is the winner, i think.
Our response to non-tolerance should be non-tolerance.
I know, its sound`s bit strange in the first place, but if i remember correctly, there was a campaign in the 80-90tis in New York, i think.
There was that "No crime left unpunished-thing" i recall her.
It actually helped to clean the streets.
Otherwise we can hand them over the power and convert to islam.
Not the choise i would make.

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27-09-2012, 10:28 AM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
(26-09-2012 07:23 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 08:38 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Agreed. However, as I argued here, I believe ridiculing Islam in particular is a bad idea. Ridiculing Christianity doesn't seem to have the same complications (and neither should ridiculing Islam), so one can get away with that more easily. However, regardless, constructive debate will likely accomplish far more than ridicule in either case.

If you are going to back down, you are a pussy-ass fuck. They are going to have to learn that all caps raging IRL will earn them nothing but more ridicule.
Where did I back down?

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27-09-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
(26-09-2012 08:58 AM)amyb Wrote:  
(25-09-2012 08:38 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Agreed. However, as I argued here, I believe ridiculing Islam in particular is a bad idea. Ridiculing Christianity doesn't seem to have the same complications (and neither should ridiculing Islam), so one can get away with that more easily. However, regardless, constructive debate will likely accomplish far more than ridicule in either case.

Ridiculing Islam is a dangerous idea, sure, but I can't agree it's a bad idea. If anything, it deserves more ridicule and less respect in light of recent events.

Ridiculing Christianity no longer has the same complications, but it used to. At this point in time, Christians have just come to the understanding that people will no longer accept them killing people for not following their religion. I'd say Islam is a bit behind the times in that respect.

And, at least as far as the extremists go, I doubt constructive criticism and debate will accomplish anything. If someone actually believes portraying their prophet makes you deserving of death, very little calm and logical debate is going to be possible.

I've been appalled to read, on different forums, people actually saying we should limit freedom of speech or prosecute the filmmakers. The appropriate thing to do, when offended by a youtube video, is make a video response bitching about it. If we punish the filmmakers, I can't see that as anything but telling Muslim extremists that murdering people was the appropriate response and the filmmakers were the ones in the wrong, which is insane.

I'm also disturbed when people are talking about it being wrong to "hurt religious feelings." That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, that religion deserves respect just because it's religion.
It's both dangerous and bad. If only harm and no good can come from it, then yes it's bad and I argue that this is the case here.

There is little that can be done about the extremists and I believe the best chance of really accomplishing anything regarding them would come from their own people - that is, the non-extremists who are also Islamist and who physically reside in the same geographical areas or at least close. Those are the people worth appealing to constructively because they are probably the only ones the extremists would even consider listening to.

I agree we shouldn't prosecute the film makers. I agree we shouldn't limit free speech. What we should do is speak out against such films because they are counterproductive to the goals of ending all this nonsense and really only exacerbate it.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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27-09-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: Condemning "Innocence of Muslims"
(27-09-2012 10:28 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-09-2012 07:23 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If you are going to back down, you are a pussy-ass fuck. They are going to have to learn that all caps raging IRL will earn them nothing but more ridicule.
Where did I back down?

When you decided that their temper tantrums were too scary to ridicule.

(27-09-2012 10:38 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-09-2012 08:58 AM)amyb Wrote:  Ridiculing Islam is a dangerous idea, sure, but I can't agree it's a bad idea. If anything, it deserves more ridicule and less respect in light of recent events.

Ridiculing Christianity no longer has the same complications, but it used to. At this point in time, Christians have just come to the understanding that people will no longer accept them killing people for not following their religion. I'd say Islam is a bit behind the times in that respect.

And, at least as far as the extremists go, I doubt constructive criticism and debate will accomplish anything. If someone actually believes portraying their prophet makes you deserving of death, very little calm and logical debate is going to be possible.

I've been appalled to read, on different forums, people actually saying we should limit freedom of speech or prosecute the filmmakers. The appropriate thing to do, when offended by a youtube video, is make a video response bitching about it. If we punish the filmmakers, I can't see that as anything but telling Muslim extremists that murdering people was the appropriate response and the filmmakers were the ones in the wrong, which is insane.

I'm also disturbed when people are talking about it being wrong to "hurt religious feelings." That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, that religion deserves respect just because it's religion.
It's both dangerous and bad. If only harm and no good can come from it, then yes it's bad and I argue that this is the case here.

There is little that can be done about the extremists and I believe the best chance of really accomplishing anything regarding them would come from their own people - that is, the non-extremists who are also Islamist and who physically reside in the same geographical areas or at least close. Those are the people worth appealing to constructively because they are probably the only ones the extremists would even consider listening to.

I agree we shouldn't prosecute the film makers. I agree we shouldn't limit free speech. What we should do is speak out against such films because they are counterproductive to the goals of ending all this nonsense and really only exacerbate it.

What we should do is show them that the Muslim radical's behavior is not to be tolerated, even if the video was incredibly offensive (which, to be honest, it wasn't).

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