Consciousness and QP
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15-01-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
Since your replies don't appear to bear any relation whatseover to the content of the posts you're ostensibly addressing, I really can't see much point in responding. But I'm an incurable optimist.

(15-01-2015 03:28 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Well it was nice running in circles with you guys. Nothing has been stated here with proof to refute my argument. Nothing that any of you have said is in any way irrefutable. It is your opinion that the Copenhagen interpretation is incorrect, and that's ok. But that doesn't make it incorrect.

You have presented no proof whatsoever. There is literally nothing to refute. You have no argument. You have an inane collection of feels.

But in any case: "your opinion doesn't make it so". This is a thing you just said. We'll return to this. Meanwhile...

(15-01-2015 03:28 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Ultimately time will tell which model is correct and if a mechanistic universe does or does not exist. Currently all science has proven is how to measure how this system (universe) behaves. Fundamentally they do not know. To think that our primitive sciences have somehow come up with a model that explains everything is laughable.

Straw man says what?
("our sciences have come up with a model that explains everything", apparently)

(15-01-2015 03:28 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  The big questions who are we? Where are we? Is there a God?

Apparently now God is involved.
(note: before any further discussion is possible you must provide a coherent definition of "God". I have yet to ever hear one)

Do note that nobody else in the thread has so much as mentioned God until you, right now. This thread was supposed to be about quantum mechanics, and your lamentable butchering thereof.

(15-01-2015 03:28 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Haven't been answered even to the slightest degree by any of your arguments. In your opinion, not enough evidence has been shown to prove Gods existence...and it's perfectly ok to think that. But before you blast religion, come with a better argument than " I've never seen God" as if God is another human being, or even better "we need to detect God via some primitive human made scientific process in order to believe that the universe had a creator". These arguments make me want to punch a wall.

Those are not real arguments. Those are idiotic misrepresentations.

If your own imagination creates things that make you want to punch walls, I advise you to seek mental health services before your thoughts of self-harm lead to any serious negative consequences.

(15-01-2015 03:28 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  My argument is simply that consciousness is fundamental to reality. Instead of being the result of some mundane processes that occur within the tissues of the physical brain. No device currently can in any way claim to measure or detect consciousness. Such people who claim to do so have no idea what they are talking about, or what they are measuring.

In one sentence you gleefully disregard the entire corpus of modern neuroscience. Good for you! Now, prove it wrong in competently-reviewed open contexts, pass Go, and collect your Nobel Prizes.

But your, ah, "argument" did at least go precisely where I dreaded it might.
Premise: [my horrible misconceptions of] quantum mechanics necessitates consciousness.
Corollary: Human consciousness isn't sufficient.
Conclusion: THEREFORE GAAAAAAAAAWD

Incidentally, what was that someone once said about opinions and untestable unverifiable unrefutable claims?
Ah, yes - "your opinion doesn't make it so". That was it.

So the part where your claim that "consciousness is fundamental to reality" is entirely baseless and insufficiently-defined speculation? That's the part that means, should you relax your death-grip of special pleading on your own, er, "arguments", you'd have to discard them by the very same criteria you purport to hold others to.

(15-01-2015 03:28 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  You have dealt zero blows to my theory, have presented no substantial evidence refuting it, and in realizing this resort to mockery.

So, pointing out the fundamental flaws and misunderstandings in your foundational premises... doesn't count as refutation?

What kind of insane troll logic is this?

(15-01-2015 03:28 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I close with this: let time tell which theories emerge regarding reality, until then keep an open mind, try to expand your worldview beyond the tiny confines of the scientific method.

And with your last, whinging, petulant breath, you manage to get around to an old favourite bit of mine,
"B..b..but you can't prove with absolute certainty that I'm wrong, so I get to keep my pretty little feels anyway, no matter what big, mean, ol' science has to say!"

I also note that you are now deliberately and explicitly abandoning the scientific as a means to justify your own beliefs. In other words, you are admitting to possessing only naive feels-based conjecture. And not only is it founded on ignorance, but you apparently refuse to bother with that whole "learning" shit, so that the whole "evidence" and "argument" business can't apply to it, by definition - thus securing you safely within the self-reinforcing cesspool of special pleading.

... this is my signature!
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15-01-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(14-01-2015 10:40 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Ok friends, I am back and attempt to clear up any misconceptions that may have been presented in the last thread, and give you a more thorough explanation of what I am saying. I also hope this time I don't stir up another angry mob like I did in my last post.

So what exactly is quantum physics?
There a four primary quantities in QP
1) Planck's constant 'h'
h=6.26x10^-34 joule seconds or watt seconds

2) energy
Energy= h X frequency

3)Planck length, the smallest divisible slice of space allowable in our universe-space is not infinitely divisible
P=1.6X10^-35 meters

4)Planck time-the smallest divisible slice of time allowable in our universe

These four values are the key way to QP. Space, time, and energy are not infinitely divisible, not 'smooth'. Time does not run smooth like it seems to on our macroscopic scale, but occurs in tiny 'ticks' of 10^-44 seconds, like a movie projector, and it is impossible to view any transition from one tick to the next.

Another interesting feature of QP is that each quantum scale event does not share a common present with any other quantum scale event; they are isolated from one another in space and time.

A neutron is 10^-15 meters in diameter. A Planck unit of length is 10^-35 meters. That means a neutron contains something on the order of 10^60 Planck volumes. 10^60 would be written out as
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00​0

Therefore if you could imagine a tiny sphere of 10^-35 meters, you could fit that many of them inside a single neutron, and no two of these tiny regions share the same 'now' the same 'present', the same instant in time. Each one of them is either or both, in the past or the future with respect to every other, and at is true all the way out to a scale of infinite distance. That's just one neutron. In addition, the neutron contains something on the order of 10^60 isolated regions of space-time no two of which share the same instantaneous present, the neutron itself is smeared out over space-time.

However, a wave-function has no actual substance. In my opinion, the definition of a wave function being pure absolute nothingness with infinite potential throughout space is the best definition I've heard. Otherwise, we regard the wave function as being some 'thing' with substance, which can be segmented in such a way hat it can be wave function COLLAPSE. First, we have to define what a wave is. A wave is not a thing. In fact, a wave function is more accurately described as pure absolute nothingness with infinite potential to be something, anything and everything throughout the Universe, from its creation 14 billion years ago to its endpoint thousands of trillions of years from now, simultaneously. A wave is a probability that something might exist and/or a probability of what that state might be.

The common misconception is to think of a wave like a water wave, which is a thing, it is tangible. But there's not actually anything to a quantum wave, by definition, a quantum wave is pure nothingness with infinite potential, which means there is nothing to matter. In fact, any type of quantum wave can appear out of total nothingness--the probability of a wave, which is a probability in itself, increases as you look at smaller and smaller slices of time. This wave function, which evolves out of absolute pure nothingness, is an infinite set of potentials spread out over all of space and time simultaneously. In one sense you can see that a thing spread out throughout all of space-time from 'The Beginning' to some indefinite end can gather, like the perfect storm, a huge amount of energy and thus manifest in an unthinkable variation of outcomes.

Wave function collapse simply means that this infinite possibilities spread out over space and time 'collapse' into one reality. Before the wave function collapses, regardless of descriptions referring to or negating the role of consciousness, the thing is in a state referred to as 'superpositioned'. Because of a quality or process of 'non-locality'. This is the relationship between those three words. We say the process or quality of non-locality leaves a wave function 'superpositioned' throughout space time until it collapses into one tangible thing.

What happens depends on who is looking at it, and what you expect to happen. Some argue that the conditions of the environment, regardless of the observer, must come into play at least to some degree. However, that assumption omits the fact that the conscious observer is also subject to the same environment, even if separated by great time and distance.

But this argument omits the dust between stars which presumably have no one watching over them to 'paint them into being.' This is the argument. If no one is there to count the dust particles between the stars, are they there when no one is watching?

You cannot possibly eliminate the conscious observer from the system and by any means know that it is there, or it has happened, and so on. There is no way around this. The CONSCIOUS OBSERVER IS THE SINGLE UNDENIABLE REPEATABLE THING, WHICH IS PRESENT IN EACH EXPERIMENT, each piece of data, everything that you are aware. The conscious observer is always the single common element to each thing known.

If you try to eliminate consciousness from the system, even a hypothetical one, nothing happens; you don't even know that nothing happens. (Vulcan Metaphysics: Nothing unreal exists...)
This seems like a childishly simple argument. It is. That is the point. Anything else requires processes and math so bizarre and complex that it appears a desperate set of infinite bandages to latch together, and still does not work, leaves huge gaps, paradoxes, and impossibilities. That is why there has been 50 years of theory with nothing to show in hand, using budgets and machinery unprecedented in human history.

Wave Function a Collapse and it's tributary concepts, although debated what it means, is not a philosophical issue. It is a phenomenon measured so many times under so many circumstances and using he most sophisticated technologies ever conceived by the greatest minds over the past century...Originally, physicists, particularly Einstein, rebuked the idea and all that it implied. However, Einstein died, knowing that he had been proven wrong, and he liked it. He had spent the entire second half of his celebrated life chasing a mechanistic universe that had been proven to 'not exist'.

The freezing of time by constant observation is the Quantum Zeno Effect. Wave Function collapse is the moment you take your eyes off it--it changes to another, possibly final state. Eyes on--Quantum Zeno Effect; frozen, blink our eyes--wave function collapse, changes to another state.

It is proven mathematically and by experimentation that true and actual progression of time as we know It is governed by the observer and his eyes on it, eyes of it concept of the Quantum Zeno Effect and Wave Function Collapse. On a macroscopic scale, this application of Consciousness to Wave function Collapse, call it what you will, if you like, doesn't seem apparent. You can't roll a lucky 7 every time or win the lottery by sheer will. Why? There is sill debate 'why' because the founders of QP died before they could reach the answer. We know it has something to do with scale, but that definition is mechanistic and ultimately vague, since the only definition for 'scale' in QP is infinity.

I think if we look at the term 'scale' and combine it with what Amit Goswami (physicist) once said something to the effect of: "on a larger scale there is not just myself, there is everybody else, too. If we all willed the lights to be green at the same time because we are all in a hurry the result would be all the cars crashing into each other, chaos, not order."

Consciousness brings order out of chaos

The word order explicitly requires populations of things and/or events. So does chaos. The definition for chaos is when those things and/or events have no relationship with one another.

Some researchers might argue that the 'forces' that cause wave function collapse come somehow out of the physical tissue of the brain. Probabilities that are composed of absolute pure nothingness (matter) don't yield possibilities that occur with certainty, it's mathematically the other way around, and irreversible. In simpler terms, a trillion, trillion, trillion Wave Functions superpositioned throughout space-time do not mechanistically deconstruct all on their own a trillion trillion trillion trillion times per second all on their own to 'paint you into existence'. This becomes even more far fetched if the suggestion is that this occurs because of probability.

In perspective, as previously stated, our single neutron consists of 10^60 isolated regions of space time. A single flower would increase that by at least 20 orders of magnitude. This means in order to 'paint a single flower into being' just once would require 10^80 organized events occurring from absolute pure nothingness superpositioned throughout space time, chaos, 10^40 times, meaning 10^120; one hundred million trillion googol organized events occurring out of pure chaos to 'paint' the dynamic system we observe as a single flower for one second, BY CHANCE.?

The cause of that is then supposedly CHANCE, 10^120 of them every second, occurring in perfect capitulation and harmony with its own dynamic atomic and molecular structure, and every other thing in its environment from the bug on its petal out to cosmological distances where the light reflects off it's surface and races off into space.

Moreover, the argument turns to, "I know that sounds crazy, but that's the whacky world of..."

Give it up. We already know that the more simple answer and the one that actually has hard data is correct. Plug consciousness into the equation and the madness is solved. This physical world is interdependent on you. And that description is also suitable within the frameworks of every philosophy and religion of man. "The Whacky world of" explanation has been half a century and billions of dollars and come up completely empty handed.

So the physical brain is in itself, as I stated in my last post, a myriad of Wave Function Collapse, as a result of Consciousness, this is not up for speculation or philosophy but the hardest science yet known to man. In order for it (the physical brain) to exist in space-time as matter, in his case a physical brain- requires consciousness to paint that Brian into being via Wave Function Collapse (via a non mechanistic approach). The brain therefore cannot possibly be responsible for the effect of wave function collapse. Again, there is no brain, that 'thing' only exists as a construct of consciousness. This is not open to debate-period.

Now I will dismiss several common counter arguments to and describe why they fail. This in turn means that the physical brain cannot mathematically, or by any coherent function of the laws of physics, produce certainty. This means that it is mathematically incoherent that the physical brain can cause consciousness. It is not possible.

THEORIES OF THE BRAIN
There are a number of brain theories that have been put forth that simply do not work.

One such refers to 'microtubule' structures in the brain being the seat of anything quantum, the scaffold for this hypothesis was dismissed half a century before the creators ideas were born. In perspective, a microtubule is in diameter, relative to size on a quantum scale, as a man floating in a volume of space 10,000 times larger than the visible universe, hoping to 'interact' with the edge of that visible universe. There is no possibility whatsoever that a Quantum event can interact with the structure of a microtubule. All attempts to find this, what is referred to as 'Hall Effect,' have clearly indicated that it does not occur. As for the statement 'there have been no serious blows to this theory' I state, clearly, 'the laws of physics dismissed the theory half a century before It was suggested. The entire premise is based on an erroneous description of Quantum Scale events and a complete misunderstanding of the role of the structure of he brain along with no data other than speculation that is based on completely erroneous misconceptions in Quantum theory.

Misidentifying vocabulary words of this sort have lead people on life long careers searching down folly simply based on the misidentification of a vocabulary word. This hypothesis and others have shown up in popular urban myth breeding grounds such as 'prime time' serial documentaries and so on, all of which invariably home in on the nonsensical, deliberately, because the fiction is more compelling to draw in a viewing audience. However, the correct answer that you already know within yourself to be true is yet more compelling: you are in every sense of the word a god, creating the world around you and manipulating it at will.

And for those who will say "he's using deception!!! Slight of hand!!" Or accuse me of getting the formal definitions wrong. I encourage you, no, I BEG you to look it up on your own. Make sure I'm right if you don't believe me.

No no no ... you are not using deception, nor are you using slight of hand.

You are just ....


X-Wrong!-X

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15-01-2015, 04:45 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
You fucktard everything still exists without your consciousness in the mix. That is a bunch of BULLSHIT. If I shot you in the head your consciousness would cease to exist but the matter that is your dead corpse is there for anyone to kick.
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15-01-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
Sorry for being so harsh everyone, but douche bags with all the answers really get my ire going. That has to be the most presumptuous bunch of nonsensical BS I have ever had the displeasure of being subjected to. Furthermore anybody who read that pile of steaming craps probably lost brain cells doing it.
I've never seen anyone try to apply QM and their own biological consciousness and say the two are mutually exclusive.
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15-01-2015, 08:36 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(15-01-2015 05:37 PM)Jack_Ripper Wrote:  Sorry for being so harsh everyone, but douche bags with all the answers really get my ire going. That has to be the most presumptuous bunch of nonsensical BS I have ever had the displeasure of being subjected to. Furthermore anybody who read that pile of steaming craps probably lost brain cells doing it.
I've never seen anyone try to apply QM and their own biological consciousness and say the two are mutually exclusive.

Well to be honest you are saying what many of us are thinking, you just said it first.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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15-01-2015, 08:44 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(15-01-2015 05:37 PM)Jack_Ripper Wrote:  Sorry for being so harsh everyone, but douche bags with all the answers really get my ire going. That has to be the most presumptuous bunch of nonsensical BS I have ever had the displeasure of being subjected to. Furthermore anybody who read that pile of steaming craps probably lost brain cells doing it.
I've never seen anyone try to apply QM and their own biological consciousness and say the two are mutually exclusive.

You meanie. You're going to upset Bucky Ball's delicate sensibilities.Angry

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-01-2015, 08:49 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
I enjoyed this.

Quote from you: "So the physical brain is in itself, as I stated in my last post, a myriad of Wave Function Collapse, as a result of Consciousness, this is not up for speculation or philosophy but the hardest science yet known to man."

I have been stating this for quite some time now. Spirit is above matter by dimension, both spatial and temporal. The simplest way to deny evolution is to confirm it as a result of involution of consciousness. Involution is Baptism, or the immersion of the Spirit of God (Self) into matter. Why? To rise to new life (Evolution). E means out of. Volution means revolving around a center.

The collapse of wave function is what Science misses by not thinking orthogonally (at right angles by dimension). Light is not simply particle and wave. It is a trinity of Particle, Wave and Spirit (Mind). None can be separated form the other. Mind is based on Word, or information. As I explain in my latest thread, the Aleph Bet (Father) writes the word into the cup (Water of the Mother / Mater / Matrix).

Good thread.
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15-01-2015, 08:54 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(14-01-2015 11:26 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 11:19 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  FUCKING SERIOUSLY!

For the love of fucking Internet kid, just go fuck off already! I don't know?! Maybe, Go enjoy the Video game or movie section of our forum! Go to the pseudoscience and conspiracy forum and talk about the illuminati or maybe, go visit the music section of our forum.
DO ANYTHING BUT CONTINUE TO POST IN THIS SECTION PLEASE!!! We are getting tired of you and you will be banned soon if ya don't stop it.

Wtf did I do?? Threaten your belief system? Until you refute what I just said. I am correct...until proven incorrect.

They cannot collapse the wave function without faith. Faith takes indeterminate probability and collapses the wave function into a determination. Apart from determining truth (hidden from perception), the particle of truth cannot be gleaned as fruit so to speak.

Compare what you have written by what you said. Collapse of wave function is light revealing what it hits. If no matter is present, the light has nothing to reflect in opposite. This is what light does.

Light cannot be seen. If it could, you would see a wash of light all around you. Instead, light revels its opposite. Matter is the inverse (image) of the light (God). We are all the image of God as Adam. Why can't the one that denies the light see it?

Yes. You get it. I know you do.
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15-01-2015, 08:56 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
Based on this, insight is sight in. Information is formed in. Wisdom is internal knowledge, illuminated by the sight that can only be given. Blind eyes see when they determine it to be so.
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15-01-2015, 08:57 PM
RE: Consciousness and QP
Then we have this moron pretending to be someone different agreeing with his own tripe. It's the same peson , he's just using his home internet and his phone for different ip address.
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