Consciousness and QP
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15-01-2015, 12:13 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(15-01-2015 12:08 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(15-01-2015 12:06 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Busted me up!

Laugh out load Me too!, I woke the dogs! Laugh out load

I had closed the computer and was guffawing still, had to reopen and let WD know that was the best line I read all day. OK, signing off for now, for real, like really this time, I’m falling asleep...here I go...

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-01-2015, 12:15 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
What this fucktard is saying is he performed a test and the observable results of that test somehow changed the outcome. Whereas in reality the test itself is the only thing that effects the outcome.
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15-01-2015, 12:23 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
I bet you guys something. Tell ya what? Let's make a bet! We could make this a gentleman's bet, but I think a monetary bet would be best! Let's each put up, say, $5.00!

Let's take bets on when this new guy and/or alphabet gets banned. Whoever is the closest with their bet wins! The losers have to donate their $5.00 to the thinking atheist site! The winner gets to keep their 5 bucks! The site gets some money and some people who were not supporters become supporters! Everyone wins!

lol.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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15-01-2015, 12:35 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
MMHM1234: You don't know what any of those words mean.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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15-01-2015, 01:01 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
You cannot possibly eliminate the conscious observer from the system and by any means know that it is there, or it has happened, and so on. There is no way around this. The CONSCIOUS OBSERVER IS THE SINGLE UNDENIABLE REPEATABLE THING, WHICH IS PRESENT IN EACH EXPERIMENT, each piece of data, everything that you are aware. The conscious observer is always the single common element to each thing known.

^You wanted to know what is wrong.
That is wrong.

Its wrong because YOU don't seem to understand what is meant by the word "observer"

The link you are trying to make and wrongly doing so, is that the universe must have a universal observer, ie... god.

Sorry bub, that word doesn't mean what you think it means. You are exhibiting a freshman college misunderstanding of the subject matter.

The existence of matter isn't dependent upon conscious beings. You have this thing stuck in your head so firmly that you can't change it, even when people point it out, time and time again.

You've taken some bits of science and tried to weave into what you want it to mean.

It doesn't work like that.

I'll add in one last thing. The consciousness we perceive is the one our brains give us. We aren't directly observing anything around us. Our senses relay what they sense. This electrical signal then gets translated into something our conscious selves can be aware of.

This why we can be a brain in a vat without any way of determining our true reality.

From the very beginning I asked you if you were unconscious , how would you determine if you were unconscious or dead ?

You replied that it would be impossible to determine which state you were in.

At this point your brain is unable to provide consciousness and thus you cannot consciously determine anything. You can't observe anything.

The universe gets along just fine without us and has for billions of years.

Go take some biology and chemistry next and come back when you actually understand the material.

I await your "I'm an evolutionist and here is my opinion of why it's wrong."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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15-01-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(15-01-2015 01:01 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  It doesn't work like that.

I'll add in one last thing. The consciousness we perceive is the one our brains give us. We aren't directly observing anything around us. Our senses relay what they sense. This electrical signal then gets translated into something our conscious selves can be aware of.

This^

It was thought at one time that the way vision worked was that our eyes “sent out light waves” and these were interpreted by our brains. I think that our friend here seems to think that is how consciousness works too. In this age of instant access to information that is downright criminal.

Facepalm

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-01-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
Didn't read. Saw "quantum physics" in the second sentence and saw the length of the post. I'm going to assume the rest is incoherent word salad and/or non sequiturs.
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15-01-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(15-01-2015 01:01 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You cannot possibly eliminate the conscious observer from the system and by any means know that it is there, or it has happened, and so on. There is no way around this. The CONSCIOUS OBSERVER IS THE SINGLE UNDENIABLE REPEATABLE THING, WHICH IS PRESENT IN EACH EXPERIMENT, each piece of data, everything that you are aware. The conscious observer is always the single common element to each thing known.

^You wanted to know what is wrong.
That is wrong.

Its wrong because YOU don't seem to understand what is meant by the word "observer"

The link you are trying to make and wrongly doing so, is that the universe must have a universal observer, ie... god.

Sorry bub, that word doesn't mean what you think it means. You are exhibiting a freshman college misunderstanding of the subject matter.

The existence of matter isn't dependent upon conscious beings. You have this thing stuck in your head so firmly that you can't change it, even when people point it out, time and time again.

You've taken some bits of science and tried to weave into what you want it to mean.

It doesn't work like that.

I'll add in one last thing. The consciousness we perceive is the one our brains give us. We aren't directly observing anything around us. Our senses relay what they sense. This electrical signal then gets translated into something our conscious selves can be aware of.

This why we can be a brain in a vat without any way of determining our true reality.

From the very beginning I asked you if you were unconscious , how would you determine if you were unconscious or dead ?

You replied that it would be impossible to determine which state you were in.

At this point your brain is unable to provide consciousness and thus you cannot consciously determine anything. You can't observe anything.

The universe gets along just fine without us and has for billions of years.

Go take some biology and chemistry next and come back when you actually understand the material.

I await your "I'm an evolutionist and here is my opinion of why it's wrong."

Ok. So you are saying you are not really conscious, that it is an illusion. The whole concept is so wacky i cant quite get my mind around it. What makes it even more absurd is the blatant fact that all of modern science has no definition for consciousness. There is absolutely no proof the brain creates consciousness. Therefor you cannot back up that claim. To call me delusional in saying that the physical world is merely a construct of consciousness, and then at the time saying you know what consciousness is...as if it is a thing such as a proton neutron or electron is absolutely false...no evidence so supports that "electricity in the brain" creates consciousness.

Physics and chemistry and all the sciences of man merely describe the current system we are in i.e. this universe and the certain principles that define this system.
But think of it this way, how would we know this system even exists if we were not aware of it? If there was nothing that knew this system exists, and observed it, it would NOT exist. The atoms, particles, etc. know what to be because we define them to be such.

Many of you subscribe to this view: consciousness has nothing to do with measurement

The point is, that statement is patently false. The truth is that measurement, as defined and understood and contemplated and used by the conscious physicist, can happen even if no such physicist is present. However, to give semantic meaning to what a measurement even is, this does indeed require a conscious intelligence (so far as we understand what those words mean), who has been there in a fully analogous situation for us to be able to use any of those words meaningfully. In short, a universe with no intelligent beings is a universe that has no measurements, and no wave functions to collapse. That is not an opinion, it is a fact-- in such a universe there are not the words "wavefunction", there is not the concept "amplitude", because there are no words and no concepts in the first place, stuff just happens, presumably the same as it does now minus any concept of "measurement" or "collapse" of anything. The significance of this fact opens up a lot of what physics really means, but does indeed get a bit philosophical.
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15-01-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(15-01-2015 08:35 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Didn't read. Saw "quantum physics" in the second sentence and saw the length of the post. I'm going to assume the rest is incoherent word salad and/or non sequiturs.

You, sir, would be right.

Throw in a dash of conspiracy theory and self-inflated ego just for fun.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-01-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Consciousness and QP
(15-01-2015 08:49 AM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(15-01-2015 01:01 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You cannot possibly eliminate the conscious observer from the system and by any means know that it is there, or it has happened, and so on. There is no way around this. The CONSCIOUS OBSERVER IS THE SINGLE UNDENIABLE REPEATABLE THING, WHICH IS PRESENT IN EACH EXPERIMENT, each piece of data, everything that you are aware. The conscious observer is always the single common element to each thing known.

^You wanted to know what is wrong.
That is wrong.

Its wrong because YOU don't seem to understand what is meant by the word "observer"

The link you are trying to make and wrongly doing so, is that the universe must have a universal observer, ie... god.

Sorry bub, that word doesn't mean what you think it means. You are exhibiting a freshman college misunderstanding of the subject matter.

The existence of matter isn't dependent upon conscious beings. You have this thing stuck in your head so firmly that you can't change it, even when people point it out, time and time again.

You've taken some bits of science and tried to weave into what you want it to mean.

It doesn't work like that.

I'll add in one last thing. The consciousness we perceive is the one our brains give us. We aren't directly observing anything around us. Our senses relay what they sense. This electrical signal then gets translated into something our conscious selves can be aware of.

This why we can be a brain in a vat without any way of determining our true reality.

From the very beginning I asked you if you were unconscious , how would you determine if you were unconscious or dead ?

You replied that it would be impossible to determine which state you were in.

At this point your brain is unable to provide consciousness and thus you cannot consciously determine anything. You can't observe anything.

The universe gets along just fine without us and has for billions of years.

Go take some biology and chemistry next and come back when you actually understand the material.

I await your "I'm an evolutionist and here is my opinion of why it's wrong."

Ok. So you are saying you are not really conscious, that it is an illusion. The whole concept is so wacky i cant quite get my mind around it. What makes it even more absurd is the blatant fact that all of modern science has no definition for consciousness. There is absolutely no proof the brain creates consciousness. Therefor you cannot back up that claim. To call me delusional in saying that the physical world is merely a construct of consciousness, and then at the time saying you know what consciousness is...as if it is a thing such as a proton neutron or electron is absolutely false...no evidence so supports that "electricity in the brain" creates consciousness.

Physics and chemistry and all the sciences of man merely describe the current system we are in i.e. this universe and the certain principles that define this system.
But think of it this way, how would we know this system even exists if we were not aware of it? If there was nothing that knew this system exists, and observed it, it would NOT exist. The atoms, particles, etc. know what to be because we define them to be such.

Many of you subscribe to this view: consciousness has nothing to do with measurement

The point is, that statement is patently false. The truth is that measurement, as defined and understood and contemplated and used by the conscious physicist, can happen even if no such physicist is present. However, to give semantic meaning to what a measurement even is, this does indeed require a conscious intelligence (so far as we understand what those words mean), who has been there in a fully analogous situation for us to be able to use any of those words meaningfully. In short, a universe with no intelligent beings is a universe that has no measurements, and no wave functions to collapse. That is not an opinion, it is a fact-- in such a universe there are not the words "wavefunction", there is not the concept "amplitude", because there are no words and no concepts in the first place, stuff just happens, presumably the same as it does now minus any concept of "measurement" or "collapse" of anything. The significance of this fact opens up a lot of what physics really means, but does indeed get a bit philosophical.

Actually it IS an illusion. You have sensory input, (because many or most of your sensory systems are working somewhat, at least). That input gets (rapidly) referenced (chemically converted to various signals), assembled into a package that makes sense to you because YOU HAVE LEARNED how to make sense of the package, in part by referencing the "input bundle" to stored memories. While this is done relatively rapidly, it CAN be slowed by drugs, or disease. By the time it's complete, it's actually in the past. In that sense, your "consciousness" is awareness of a few fractions of a second in the past, thus actually what you experience as "present" is already past. Therefore, your consciousness IS an illusion.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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