Consciousness is fundamental to reality
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13-06-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 06:56 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I have a hard time subscribing to the view that consciousness is the result of mundane electro chemical processes.
It seems this is the argument from incredulity.
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13-06-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(13-06-2015 10:23 AM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  i presetned REAL scientific data and you still choose to bury your head in the sand.
What is the mechanism of consciousness (without a material underlying)?
What is it made of? How is a consciousness able to perceive its surrounding without physical structures such as eyes, or touch, or ears, or nose, or taste buds, without a nervous system?
How is it able to store data and analyse that data without physical structures such as a brain?
How is it able to interact with it's environment so that we can have observation based clues that the consciousness has indeed perceived, analysed and reacted?
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13-06-2015, 01:59 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
Mmhm - how do you view unconsciousness ?

If you are unconscious from reality, then what are you ?
I will try to word this better.

Does an unconscious person exist ?
When chemicals are introduced into your bloodstream and you go unconscious before surgery, how do you view that ?
What do you think happens to you when you are no longer conscious ?

What are your thoughts on video recordings of you while you are unconscious ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-06-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I plagiarized that whole post? First off, no actually I didn't. Secondly, please find the original post that i somehow plagiarized. You claim what i presented somehow is untrue. How is this so?

I said it was irrelevant to the question of consciousness. It is. Don't make up shit about what I say. You plagiarized most of it, you dishonest twit. You acannot write like that.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Are you saying that QM is false? What i presented is fact, and I'm sorry you couldn't understand it.

What you presented is not "fact" On the contrary it is you that doesn't get what I already said about your bullshit, nor have you replied to even ONE objection raised by anyone. All you do is keep repeating the same shit. Over and over. That's no argument.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  There is no matter, only potentiality-potential electrons, but there is in fact no matter until it is observed.

That's what I thought.
You are insane.
There is not one scientist in the entire world that says "there is no matter".

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Modern science doesn't like plugging consciousness into the equation because this view of QM entirely refutes the mechanistic universe and makes consciousness the creator of reality, determining where the particles will be, bringing order out of chaos.

Wrong again idiot. They don't "plug it in" because it's not real science. You don't even know what the scientific method is, or how science is done.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  It seems to me that you and and many of the people who have been replying to my posts somehow think consciousness exists separate from you, as something that can be found measured and quantified.

Well that's just more proof you cannot read or think clearly. I never said that. You are incapable or reasoning without placing it in the context of your insane nonsense.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I did however provide at least some basis for my claims, you have provided nothing, except "well we think its in the brain, but we're not really sure".

You did nothing of the sort, and I never said that. Liar.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I don't think you truly lucidly comprehend that consciousness does not exist apart from you. Hence you cannot find it. Consciousness is life itself! Our scientific method is incapable of understanding consciousness itself because consciousness cannot be objectified. Even if it could be, those objects are merely probability waves and nothing solid.

Yes. Just like all insane people you can only assume everyone sees your insanity.
Get help.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Consciousness is a mystery unlikely to be solved by science or philosophy or religion or anything but our own common sense--because it is the essence of existence, the sine qua non of reality.

It is not. Science knows from where it emerges, and when it does NOT emerge. YOU can provide NOT ONE EXAMPLE of it with no brain. Repeating your garbage does not make it true.

Common sense has been proven to not be very useful at the fundamental level of Reality. Uncertainty and Relativity were not discovered or proven by "common sense". In any case you have no common sense. You have no basic understanding of the concept you toss about here to try to make yourself look knowledgeable. Anyone presenting this crap in an academic environment would be flunked out on his ass.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-06-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
Mmhm - curious to know

Do you believe that you were biologically born from your mothers womb ?

Or perhaps that you simply became conscious in a small human body with all of the universe coming into existence the moment that you became conscious of it all ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-06-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
What is the mechanism of consciousness (without a material underlying)?
What is it made of? How is a consciousness able to perceive its surrounding without physical structures such as eyes, or touch, or ears, or nose, or taste buds, without a nervous system?
How is it able to store data and analyse that data without physical structures such as a brain?
How is it able to interact with it's environment so that we can have observation based clues that the consciousness has indeed perceived, analysed and reacted?
[/quote]

this is the great mystery, I'm sorry i can't tell you what it is made of, or if it even has a substance or mass. as i said the brain and body are just constructs of consciousness for perceiving events in this finite universe. when the brain body are damaged then the perceptions are altered, this doesn't necessarily mean consciousness ceases though.
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13-06-2015, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2015 04:20 PM by mmhm1234.)
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(13-06-2015 02:55 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Mmhm - curious to know

Do you believe that you were biologically born from your mothers womb ?

Or perhaps that you simply became conscious in a small human body with all of the universe coming into existence the moment that you became conscious of it all ?

No, i believe I existed prior to being born, albeit in a much expanded state of awareness. So did you, just because you cognitively tell yourself "i am finite, i didn't exist for infinity prior to birth, and will cease to exist for infinity after death" does not in any way change your true infinite nature. Birth, was when the human perception of life began, death is a transition back to the domain in which our consciousness truly resides- an infinite domain (this is my theory anyway).

Hinduisms view is that the entire universe is merely God at play. Your true self 'atman' is essentially of the same 'stuff' as God.Your life is a very brief perception, like looking into a microscope and perceiving the little micro bug world, death is akin to lifting your eye from the microscope. the entire system of life is designed so you can't 'peek' outside of the box and remember "oh, yea, its just a dream, I'm not Joe, or alice, or bob, with a name and an address, those were just characters in the play, i am an infinite being, i have always existed, and will always exist…for infinity" Any glimpse 'outside of the box' (such as in NDE states) is mostly forgotten because the human brain is for the most part, only capable of perceiving events in this finite universe. Part of the human perception is to be seemingly finite…what a savage exciting concept for an infinite being! so foreign to our true nature.

The concept of finding consciousness will always remain elusive. Its like looking in a mirror and trying not to see yourself. The existence of a soul is a belief that has been held by most people through all of human history. Those who don't believe in a soul assert that science can disprove that belief. So far it hasn't. To say you are sure that science will disprove the existence of a soul someday is, to put it bluntly, wishful thinking.
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13-06-2015, 04:11 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2015 04:17 PM by mmhm1234.)
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
"That's what I thought.
You are insane.
There is not one scientist in the entire world that says "there is no matter". "

Matter applies on a macroscopic scale. The closer you look down to see what the core building blocks are, what its all really made of, you will not find anything there. The 'wave function' is only probability and possibility - potential existence.


"Wrong again idiot. They don't "plug it in" because it's not real science. You don't even know what the scientific method is, or how science is done."

and yet the entire scientific method hinges upon conscious observation. *sigh* you really are a fucking moron aren't ya?? Do you seriously not understand the problem here? Are you that dim witted that you can't see the elephant in the room? There is no way you can ever eliminate consciousness from any system. Even if you try to hypothesis a theory about how this would be possible, such a theory is only there because consciousness thought it up! What a bizarre state of affairs science is in, trying to explain themselves out of existence.

Bain does not= consciousness. I have already given you examples of people still having consciousness when their brains were dead, this has been reported by tens of thousands of people who were pronounced clinically dead. And yet, you claim a dead brain produced this experience? How can a DEAD brain produce such an experience? All of the things you have presented are theories. The whole oxygen deprivation thing is just a theory and has not been proven to be true.
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13-06-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Are you saying that QM is false?
No he is saying your version of QM is false and it's demonstrably so. There is no credible scientist or peer reviewed science that states that matter does not exist. You are making that up from whole cloth, you are lying.

You are welcome to provide links to peer reviewed studies stating, in those words, that matter does not exist. Your claim is not a part of established QM and everyone here knows it. We are not interested in entertaining your delusions or your lies.


(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  What i presented is fact, and I'm sorry you couldn't understand it.
Quantum Mechanics is a fact your statement is not. Scientist studying and publishing material on QM understand QM far more then you do and they UNIVERSALLY DISAGREE with you. The failure to understand is yours, not ours. You are welcome to provide links to peer reviewed studies stating, in those words, that matter does not exist.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  There is no matter, only potentiality-potential electrons, but there is in fact no matter until it is observed.
Repeating a stupid baseless claim that has already been rejected while continuing to provide no evidence, justification, or support in the scientific community does not make it more believable. We are not interested in your delusions or your lies.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Modern science doesn't like plugging consciousness into the equation
Except that we have multiple fields of modern science devoted wholly to the study of the brain, how it works, and to consciousness. Now you are just being fucking stupid and not thinking your bullshit through before you vomit it onto your keyboard.

Also "lol conspiracy" is fucking tedious mate. Grow up.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  ....because this view of QM entirely refutes the mechanistic universe
YOUR view is irrelevant because it is not based on anything outside of your personal delusions and incalculable stupidity. QM is LITERALLY the investigation of the mechanistic universe at the quantum level. You are actually trying to contort QM in to the literal opposite of what it is and it's fucking hilarious. It's like watching a cat try and fly a plane, just because you can sit in the damn seat does not make you a pilot. QM does the exact opposite of what you think it does.
You are welcome to provide links to a single peer reviewed study showing that QM invalidates the material and mechanistic universe. But we both know you wont.


(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  and makes consciousness the creator of reality, determining where the particles will be, bringing order out of chaos.
Nope. We can prove empirically, and without interpretation, that particles were obeying the laws of physics long before any demonstrated consciousness arose. Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and every field of science INCLUDING QM points to this.
The scientists who understand QM agree universally, though you are welcome to provide links to peer-reviewed studies that state otherwise.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  It seems to me that you and and many of the people who have been replying to my posts somehow think consciousness exists separate from you...
Consciousness exists as separate from you in the same way digestion does. It's an emergent property of an organ.


(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  ...as something that can be found measured and quantified.
We can alter consciousness radically by stimulating parts of the brain or by damaging it. The fact that we can do this not only means that it CAN be found, measured, and quantified but that we have actually begun to do it already. This is a point you refuse to address even though it's been brought up a dozen or more times.
If consciousness is not located in the brain how then are we able to change it by effecting the brain?

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Well if somehow it is found- who was doing the finding?- CONSCIOUSNESS.
So fucking what asshole, I have GPS on my keys so that when I lose them I can find them with my phone...using GPS. GPS is finding GPS so therefor It's unfindable? Don't be fucking stupid. If we are using our consciousness to unravel consciousness that does not mean it's wrong if the results are repeatable and demonstrable and so far they have been exactly that.

Your big "mind blowing" question above is an irrelevant fart into a tornado. It's meaningless.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Its so simple and yet you can't seem to grasp it.
It's so simple so very very very simple, Hobo , so simple in fact that there is nothing to grasp on to. It's an irrelevant observation. Using consciousness to examine consciousness just speaks to the power of the brain and the mind. It does NOT refute the findings. At all.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  You're calling me a nut and while at the same time providing no real proof to strengthen your side of the debate.
We are calling you a nut because you ARE a nut. You don't understand what QM even IS but you choose to make up stuff based on your own personal incredulity and stupidity. You have literally, not figuratively but fucking literally, said things that are text book arguments from personal incredulity, not corrected any of them, and demand to be taken seriously while actively lying about QM and other things. You're not just a nut your also a dishonest asshole.
As for our side I think we can rest on "all of peer reviewed science on the subject" which all supports our position. We have no need to fortify our castle from a shit stain throwing the mental equivalent of bad words at our walls.


(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I did however provide at least some basis for my claims, you have provided nothing, except "well we think its in the brain, but we're not really sure".
1.) You did nothing of the sort because your delusions and ignorance of QM is not a "basis" of anything.
2.) We are sure actually shithead a thing we have said several times. Messing with the brain directly messes with conciseness. We have shown, tested, and demonstrated this in the lab. Fuck off you dishonest piece of shit.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I don't think you truly lucidly comprehend that consciousness does not exist apart from you.
...lolwut?
Every single person here has more or less said that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and by definition can not exist outside our body or apart from us. When I die my consciousness will cease to be. So congratu-fucking-lations the only thing you got right is to refute a point that no one was making. *slow clap*


(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Hence you cannot find it.
That does not follow at all dumb ass. The fact that it is a part of us does not preclude us from finding it. All you have done is declared it so. Which is pants-on-head-retarded because we already have started to map it, which is why we can alter it....by altering the chemistry of the brain...where it comes from.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Consciousness is life itself!
No biology is. Trees are not conscious but are alive. Go fuck yourself, stupid.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Our scientific method is incapable of understanding consciousness itself because consciousness cannot be objectified.
Wrong you lying spunk dumpster. We have already started to do just that. Not only that but if consciousness is a phenomena in reality then we absolutely can, and are, doing just that because that's the whole point of the scientific method you simple fuck.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Even if it could be, those objects are merely probability waves and nothing solid.
That's not what QM says.

(13-06-2015 01:13 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Consciousness is a mystery unlikely to be solved by science or philosophy or religion or anything but our own common sense--because it is the essence of existence, the sine qua non of reality.
Lol common sense. Common sense is such a poor method of determining anything that we developed the scientific method because of it's uselessness. You're just an anti-science lunatic, a fucking dishonest lier, and a person of boundless stupidity.

You're wrong plain and simple and until you provide some peer-reviewed studies or some actual fucking evidence you can fuck off, enjoy a nice hand grande salad, and stop polluting the internet with your stupid shit.

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13-06-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(13-06-2015 04:03 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  No, i believe I existed prior to being born, albeit in a much expanded state of awareness. So did you, just because you cognitively tell yourself "i am finite, i didn't exist for infinity prior to birth, and will cease to exist for infinity after death" does not in any way change your true infinite nature. Birth, was when the human perception of life began, death is a transition back to the domain in which our consciousness truly resides- an infinite domain (this is my theory anyway). Your life is a very brief perception, like looking into a microscope and perceiving the little micro bug world, death is akin to lifting your eye from the microscope. the entire system of life is designed so you can't 'peek' outside of the box and remember "oh, yea, its just a dream, I'm not Joe, or alice, or bob, with a name and an address, those were just characters in the play, i am an infinite being, i have always existed, and will always exist…for infinity" Any glimpse 'outside of the box' (such as in NDE states) is mostly forgotten because the human brain is for the most part, only capable of perceiving events in this finite universe. Part of the human perception is to be seemingly finite…what a savage exciting concept for an infinite being! so foreign to our true nature.

The concept of finding consciousness will always remain elusive. Its like looking in a mirror and trying not to see yourself. The existence of a soul is a belief that has been held by most people through all of human history. Those who don't believe in a soul assert that science can disprove that belief. So far it hasn't. To say you are sure that science will disprove the existence of a soul someday is, to put it bluntly, wishful thinking.

Prove a single one of these bullshit statements. Just one.

Also you use the word theory wrong, you don't have a theory you have made up nonsense that feels good to you. Science does not have to disprove a soul because it's not up to us to disprove something it's up to you, making the claim that one exists, to prove that it does you fuckwit. YOU have the burden of proof regarding the existence of a soul and you have provided no evidence thus the whole idea can be dismissed without investigation. You know fuck all about how science or reality works.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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