Consciousness is fundamental to reality
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12-06-2015, 08:09 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:04 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Why are you incapable of answering my question? You haven't said anything to deny my statement. I hope you realize the joke is on you, you're the one looking foolish here.

Your question is nonsense.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-06-2015, 08:09 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2015 08:14 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:04 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Why are you incapable of answering my question? You haven't said anything to deny my statement. I hope you realize the joke is on you, you're the one looking foolish here.

You keep telling yourself that dear. Weeping
Order arises in this universe spontaneously. You are incapable of addressing even ONE of the objections raised here. Consciousness is not what order arises from, and you have no evidence that it does, or that there is a causal relationship necessary between them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
Consciousness can recognize order. It is not necessary for it. In order for your claim to be true, a universe with order in it would have to be PREDATED (caused by) by consciousness, and that is meaningless. There is no "before" space-time. Your argument is just another way of "doing" the (many times debunked) Kalam argument.

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12-06-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And just throwing out definitions of no purpose doesn't really matter of say anything significant if the idea isn't really spectacular. Some 19th or early 20th century philosophers might disagree with that but it doesn't actually get to any proof to just assert your definition.

How do you know you have defined any sensible view of order? Are you certain your consciousness is order or even an actual thing?

My consciousness is the only thing i am truly certain of exists. My own consciousness is more real than the chair I am sitting on. So yes, I am pretty damn sure my consciousness is a real thing.
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12-06-2015, 08:12 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-06-2015 08:04 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Why are you incapable of answering my question? You haven't said anything to deny my statement. I hope you realize the joke is on you, you're the one looking foolish here.

Your question is nonsense.
Please explain how it is nonsense. It is nonsense to your mechanistic worldview, and you feel threatened. Instead of answering it you avoid doing so and call it nonsense and insult me
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12-06-2015, 08:14 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:11 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(12-06-2015 08:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And just throwing out definitions of no purpose doesn't really matter of say anything significant if the idea isn't really spectacular. Some 19th or early 20th century philosophers might disagree with that but it doesn't actually get to any proof to just assert your definition.

How do you know you have defined any sensible view of order? Are you certain your consciousness is order or even an actual thing?

My consciousness is the only thing i am truly certain of exists. My own consciousness is more real than the chair I am sitting on. So yes, I am pretty damn sure my consciousness is a real thing.

Oh, goody - a solipsist.

The chair is a physical object; your consciousness is a process. While they both exist, their existences are not equivalent.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-06-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:11 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(12-06-2015 08:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And just throwing out definitions of no purpose doesn't really matter of say anything significant if the idea isn't really spectacular. Some 19th or early 20th century philosophers might disagree with that but it doesn't actually get to any proof to just assert your definition.

How do you know you have defined any sensible view of order? Are you certain your consciousness is order or even an actual thing?

My consciousness is the only thing i am truly certain of exists. My own consciousness is more real than the chair I am sitting on. So yes, I am pretty damn sure my consciousness is a real thing.

So what ? If your brain were damaged by disease or trauma, your consciousness would cease and the world would go on, just as before. Your consciousness is irrelevant to reality. You are 11 aren't you ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-06-2015, 08:18 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2015 08:22 PM by mmhm1234.)
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
You keep telling yourself that dear. Weeping
Order arises in this universe spontaneously. You are incapable of addressing even ONE of the objections raised here. Consciousness is not what order arises from, and you have no evidence that it does, or that there is a causal relationship necessary between them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
[/quote]

Order arises by chance? Once again, there is no evidence to support this. In fact, the mathematical probability of this being the case is so small it is not possible. You are telling me that googolplexes of organized events are occurring spontaneously and by pure chance? This makes no sense whatsoever. Plug consciousness into the equation and you have found your source of order. Consciousness causes this order, it brings order out of chaos.

It's either order arises from consciousness, or you have to subscribe to the highly unbelievable idea that this is all somehow randomly happening and by chance it organized itself, then you say "I know, but that's the whacky world of..." And your argument becomes even more unbelievable. The universe is highly ordered. In fact any attempt to find a truly random system in nature has come up empty handed. Even the falling of raindrops, or the explosions of supernova have order.
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12-06-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
At work.

So, if I am understanding the original poster. Inteligence/consciousness effects(affects?) reality.

Clouds are real.... Can the original poster effect them with their consciousness?

We currently have cameras and a few other systems fying towards Pluto. Did said rock exist before we could use telescopes to see it?
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12-06-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:11 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(12-06-2015 08:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And just throwing out definitions of no purpose doesn't really matter of say anything significant if the idea isn't really spectacular. Some 19th or early 20th century philosophers might disagree with that but it doesn't actually get to any proof to just assert your definition.

How do you know you have defined any sensible view of order? Are you certain your consciousness is order or even an actual thing?

My consciousness is the only thing i am truly certain of exists. My own consciousness is more real than the chair I am sitting on. So yes, I am pretty damn sure my consciousness is a real thing.

Very funny to see how you discredit so much yet... no you stick to that consciousness still, No THAT can't be wrong or as not real as anything else. It's entirely dishonest and deluded.

You set a standard where you suddenly stop the skeptical trusting approach.. the problem of so many who have a heightened sense of their self discovery.

And again you're making arguments of IT SEEMS TO ME... you are a fool to keep repeating that. Your take on what's improbable is far from special.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-06-2015, 08:24 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 08:18 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Order arises by chance? Once again, there is no evidence to support this. In fact, the mathematical probability of this being the case is so small it is not possible. You are telling me that googolplexes of organized events are occurring spontaneously and by pure chance? This makes no sense whatsoever. Plug consciousness into the equation and you have found your source of order. Consciousness causes this order, it brings order out of chaos.

It's either order arises from consciousness, or you have to subscribe to the highly unbelievable idea that this is all somehow randomly happening and by chance it organized itself, then you say "I know, but that's the whacky world of..." And your argument becomes even more unbelievable.

Yes they do. You know nothing about Chaos Theory, and you didn't read the link. Order DOES arise spontaneously in this universe, and YOU have no idea what you are talking about when you *claim* it's "improbable". You have not demonstrated the probability, or how you arrived at that conclusion. Very very highly improbable events happen all the time. Yes, 1/googleplex improbable individual events happen all the time. Obviously you know nothing about math either. Anyone who took 1 science class knows about Chaos Theory. They forgot that in your Bible School I guess.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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