Consciousness is fundamental to reality
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12-06-2015, 10:34 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
At work.

W.T.F?

You can't find consciousness in the brain? Really?

Where, pray tell, does one find it then?
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12-06-2015, 10:37 PM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 10:26 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Oh well you'll die one day and find out for your self.

Highly unlikely, because in order to even be self-aware we need functioning brains. Where does our consciousness go at night when we're in non-REM sleep? The other body organs continue to function, but the part of our minds that sustains our concept of self goes into power-save mode and "we" disappear until a dream state or awakening.

Upon brain death, therefore, it's reasonable to assume that there no longer exists a physical structure to support the concept of self, and "we" are gone.

Now, if you're proposing that a parallel support system for our consciousness comes online at the time of death, please outline that hypothesis and suggest an experimental methodology so that we can test it.
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13-06-2015, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2015 01:04 AM by Ace.)
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 07:12 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  How would you know consciousness was not present? Human life might not have existed but in order for anything to be real, it needs to be perceived as such. Consciousness has exists at least since the beginning of the universe

define consciousness please

also it IS a result of electro chemical reactions in our brains, consciousness, minds, thoughts, emotions etc etc all require a BRAIN to occur and there is no indication it being anything else, everything we associate to a mind or consciousness has always required a physical brain to accommodate the process

you don't need to perceive something for it to be real,

Perception (from the Latin perceptio, percipio) is the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information in order to represent and understand the environment.[1] All perception involves signals in the nervous system, which in turn result from physical or chemical stimulation of the sense organs

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception

you don't need to perceive an asteroid for it to be real, you need to perceive said asteroid in order to know about its existence and think about it, the same applies to everything

and here's some more facts


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13-06-2015, 01:31 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2015 10:32 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 09:36 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Space-time is just a construct of consciousness.

It is not and it's very easy to prove that it is not. It is observed to be independent of human consciousness at work and measured independently billions or trillions of time per day. You're simply flat dead wrong.

(12-06-2015 09:36 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Consciousness is eternal.

So you claim, yet provide not a shred of evidence. Your claim without evidence has no more value than "the moon is made of green cheese"

(12-06-2015 09:36 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  This resolves the whole,"well how can the universe come from nothing?" Conundrum. It didn't it came from an infinite eternal thing (consciousness). The universe had a beginning and will have an end.

All worthless claims with no evidence provided. None.

(12-06-2015 09:36 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  It is my speculation ....

Exactly. Nothing more than speculation. At least you admit it's nothing but *speculation*.

(12-06-2015 09:36 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  consciousness actually exists in an entirely different domain altogether and is merely perceiving events in this finite domain. Death is a shift in perception back to this domain. People who have died in my opinion, have caught glimpses of this infinite domain in which our consciousness truly resides. If consciousness is eternal, it cannot finite 'inside' a finite domain. It is merely perceiving events in a Finite domain (this universe).

More worthless speculation. You have never talked to a dead person, so you are inventing this bullshit fairy tale up. Its nothing but a fairy tale. YOU cannot provide ONE instance of consciousness without a brain. You cannot even DEFINE consciousness. All your claims and speculation are worthless bullshit.

(12-06-2015 09:36 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Here's what one NDEr says regarding his glimpse onto the other side of death: "It was a sudden transformation into a realm of timeless Absolute Beauty, Absolute Love and Absolute Infinity. It was a total immersion in light, brightness, warmth, peace, security. It’s difficult to describe as a matter of fact it’s impossible to describe. Verbally it cannot be expressed, it’s something that becomes you and you become it. There are no words to describe timelessness, eternity, total knowledge, total peace, and total love. I could say that I was peace, I was love, I was the brightness it was a part of me."

NDEs have been explained by science as a de-oxygenation phenomenon. They are explained and your NDE bullshit is nothing but a brain becoming de-oxygenated. NDEs prove nothing.

(12-06-2015 09:36 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Consciousness is not an artifact of the universe. The universe is an artifact of consciousness.

Repeating worthless speculations ad nauseam does not make them true any more than repeating "the moon is made of green cheese" makes that true.

All you are capable of is worthless (self-admitted) speculations, supported by no evidence. NDEs have been debunked by science, (something you know next to nothing about). Since the beginning of time, countess millions of insane preachers (like you) have made insane claims based on no evidence. You are but one of countless nut cases who claim shit they cooked up, with no basis in reality. NDEs require a specific brain. They do not in any way support your case. You are unable to think in a critical way.

"A brain is a terrible thing to waste." You are dismissed.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-06-2015, 06:05 AM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
(12-06-2015 10:18 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(12-06-2015 10:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Facepalm

How would an observer exist when there was no universe for him to be certain in?

Knights who say NI!

Lol you're a dumbass

I'll take that to mean that you can't answer the question, especially since your speculations are simply incoherent ramblings.

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13-06-2015, 06:43 AM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
I'll take that to mean that you can't answer the question, especially since your speculations are simply incoherent ramblings.
[/quote]

What you just said was an incoherent rambling. You think that it was clever but it's really not. You also never answered my questions.
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13-06-2015, 07:08 AM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
Fuck, 'nother idiot, different day Rolleyes

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-06-2015, 07:49 AM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
Bucky, you think you're smarter than you actually are bud.

Claiming NDEs have been proven by science is simply not true. There are theories, but no solid fact that this is the case. Also, to say consciousness is created by the brain is another lie, and has not been proven by science either. The brain is merely a sensory organ, a conduit of information. Ask your self, what is perceiving the thoughts, and sensory input the brain is detecting? Since you claim the brain creates consciousness i need some citations and peer reviewed scientific articles that i can read which state 'consciousness is made of ___,___, and ___. ' However, I know you wont be able to provide such information because it doesn't exist. Science doesn't know what consciousness is or how it is created.

Apparently you also don't fundamentally understand what QM has been alluding to for decades either. The Newtonian mechanistic universe does NOT exist. A common basic assumption since Newton is that a "real world" exists independently of us, regardless of whether or not we observe it.

This seems to be the view you and many others still hold in regards to physics. Ill give you a brief description here why a mechanistic universe simply does not exist.

Werner Heisenberg argued that such concepts as orbits of electrons do not exist in nature unless and until we observe them. Max Born, however, showed that the "wave function" of Schrodingers equation does not represent the density of charge or matter. It describes only the probability of finding an electron at a certain point. In other words, quantum mechanics cannot give exact results, but only the probabilities for the occurrence of a variety of possible results.

Heisenberg took this one step further: he challenged the notion of simple causality in nature, that every determinate cause in nature is followed by the resulting effect.
Translated into "classical physics" this had meant that the future motion of a particle could be exactly predicted from a knowledge of its present position and momentum and all of the forces aging upon it. The uncertainty principle denies this, Heisenberg declared, because one cannot know the precise position and momentum of a particle at given instant, it's future cannot be determined. One cannot calculate the precise future motion of a particle, but only a range of possibilities for the future motion of a particle.

A massive planetary effort by every physicist set about affirming or denying by experimentation and mathematical proof that matter and energy existed as nothing more than probability functions - potentiality, which extended to any system linked to a particular potentiality out to infinity in both space and time - until we look at it. The effort to deny that fact has continued to his day and every effort by the most brilliant minds working together applying the most mind boggling technologies ever conceived have failed to disprove this fact.

All of these things were rigorously criticized and tested in every conceivable way and found to be true. The result was then that there was nothing 'solid' about the world. There is only probabilities and possibilities - no stuff. When you take a close look at what anything and everything really is, there is nothing there, only probability - even energy itself in any form is only probability. In modern terms they use the word potentiality.

At this time in history (the early 20th century), Pauli and Heisenberg were strong advocates to the philosophy that we are the cause of wave function collapse, the change from a potential realm of infinite possibilities to a solid outcome. There no longer was matter, no certainty, and no actual separate things or events throughout all of space-time. All things existed in a multitude possibly infinite set of possibilities and physical locations in space time simultaneously - until we look at it. In addition, at the moment we observe it, all things tied together by any potentiality or possibility with this thing come into being.

"What do you mean nothing is solid??? That's the way it seems!" You are probably thinking.

This is where things get even weirder. The double slit experiment further proved that there is no 'solid' matter but only waves, this is referred to as wave-particle duality. The most baffling part of the double slit experiment comes when only one photon at a time is fired at the barrier with both slits open. The pattern of interference remains the same, as can be seen if many photons are emitted one at a time and recorded on the same sheet of photographic film. The clear implication is that something with a wavelike nature passes simultaneously through both slits and interferes with itself--even though there is only one photon present. It is even more baffling when you do it with small molecules that are supposed to be matter. Isn't matter solid? Performed with particles, such as electrons, a new enigma emerges-- the wave particle nature of matter seems to 'know' that it is being measured by expressing itself as a wave in a wave experiment, but expressing itself as a particle in any particle experiment.

If we try to 'trick' the photon by trying to measure it's whereabouts it ceases being,
Everywhere and becomes a particle with a defined location and path.

Determinism is a view that particles and forces of nature behave in a mechanistic and predictable way, independent of the observer - they would occur that way if no life existed in the universe. This view is totally abolished by the double slit experiments. The view that matter is somehow 'solid and real' is abolished by these experiments. Matter, light, and time are what the observer determines them to be, and have no substance other than what we fashion them to be.

Be not plugging consciousness into the equation we end up with innumerable paradoxes and broken math. We therefore get this younger generation of scientists possibly refuting the philosophical concepts of consciousness and its role in reality, as put forth by the great geniuses of the early 20th century. They, however, are not scientists of such magnitude as their ancestors, and they have no physical evidence or data whatsoever that in any way refutes the philosophies our scientific ancestors laid down. In fact, the evidence and data all conclude that consciousness cannot be eliminated from any system--BY THE VERY FACT THAT THEY LOOK AT THE DATA

This is a reality that they fail to admit. Certainty is a concept that only has meaning with respect to consciousness. A universe with absolutely no observer can have no certainty. Any system on any scale with no observer can have no certainty. Certainty is not possible without consciousness, by definition. Certainty, by definition, is an act of, product of, artifact of, a 'thing' of consciousness. In addition, by definition, without certainty, uncertainty (chaos) remains for infinity, and nothing exists, not even time
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13-06-2015, 08:14 AM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
I'll play...

(12-06-2015 06:56 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  I have a hard time subscribing to the view that consciousness is the result of mundane electro chemical processes. This is merely a theory not fact.

All of the evidence points to it being an electro-chemical process.

I have a hard time imagining how life came from non-life, or how the universe came from nothing. It's ok to not know everything. We can admit that we don't fully understand all things. Consciousness is another thing that is not fully understood, but that doesn't mean we should jump to outlandish conclusions though.

(12-06-2015 06:56 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  To claim that consciousness isn't necessary in my mind is absurd, especially because such a view is coming from a conscious sentient being, the statement is almost non-sequitur.

Are you saying that the universe can't exist without conscious organisms?

(12-06-2015 06:56 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  You cannot possibly eliminate the conscious observer from any system and by any means know it is there, or it has happened, and so on. There is no way around this. The conscious observer is the single undeniable repeatable thing which is present in each experiment, each piece of data, each and everything that you are aware of.the conscious observer is always the single common element to each and every thing known.

I agree. Knowledge requires consciousness, has anyone ever argued against that claim....ever?


(12-06-2015 06:56 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  If you try to eliminate consciousness from the system, even a hypothetical one, nothing happens; you don't even know nothing happens.

Why would things stop happening? Are you saying that if conscious organisms stopped existing, that the universe would cease to exist?

(12-06-2015 06:56 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Certainty is a perception, it can only be alluding to a conscious observer. Without consciousness there is no certainty.
I'll give you this, again, is anyone arguing that knowledge can exist without consciousness? You have to remember....things happen whether we have knowledge of them or not. We see evidence of this literally all the time.
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13-06-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: Consciousness is fundamental to reality
I call for an evaluation meeting on whether or not we have enough grounds for mom and the other moderators to ban him
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