Consensus
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08-07-2017, 12:54 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 01:12 AM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Consensus
It's's been a while since I did one of these.

(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  So... ya... I kinda feel like the point here is being missed.

Your point wasn't missed I didn't come here to debate your points, I came to offer the observation that every single person on this forum that has ever taken issue with the rep system has only ever happened AFTER they see their reputation fall.

However, you think your point has been missed and that's fair so allow me to disabuse you of that notion by going through your OP and pointing out how and why you are wrong and then I'll get back to the rest of your post.

[Image: are_you_ready_for_the___hurricane___gif_...4lz74l.gif]
Ahem.

Quote:
(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Rep systems are fundamentally flawed because they rely on the consensus and silent voices of dissent.
This is wrong in three different ways.
1.) Let's say there is a member here that has had a total of 54 people rep them and their current rep is +11. This means that some people have given that person positive reps and some have given them negative reps. There is no consensus there at all. No general agreement on the quality of that person.
2.) Click the member's list and realise that this forum has had upwards of 18 000 members over it's lifetime then realise that 10 negative reps doesn't even come CLOSE to a consensus. The only consensus to be found here is that of those people who have held a conversation with you that cared enough to rep you didn't like you very much. This says very little about the forum, or rep systems or your invented consensus and a lot more about you.
3.) The fact you can freely make a thread about this topic proves, as a matter of fact, your dissenting opinion has not be silenced. There is not a single word, thought, feeling, hope, or objections that you have been prevented from freely expressing.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Very quickly individuals can find themselves black listed for voicing opposing views.
This is an atheist forum, that should be fairly clear given the name, and two of our most highly respected and highly repped members are a Calvinist and an Orthodox Jew. They both express the single most important dissenting view you can possibly have on an Athiest forum. Aliza has a 100% positive reputation while thinking every single one of us is wrong on the existence of God.

Find me a single example on this forum of a person who was down repped solely for disagreeing. You won't find one. You sure as shit don't count. you won't find a single case to support your assertion and I can find DOZENS of examples that demonstrate you are wrong. That's not an opinion that is a fact.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  This leads to a snake eating it's own tail, with individuals being excommunicated for stepping outside the acceptable doctrine.
This is nonsense of the highest order. As I just demonstrated you have no actual examples here to support this and I have many that show the exact opposite. Secondly, to how that a person even could be punished for stepping outside the "acceptable doctrine" you have to show that such a doctrine even exists which you haven't done.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  I was ridiculed elsewhere on this forum for saying that I don't care what the consensus says.
So the fuck what? If people find your positions or opinions ridiculous they will ridicule them, and it's not up to you to dictate what other people find deserving of ridicule. "Boo-fucking-hoo, people made fun of me on the internet, I better make a passive-aggressive bitching post that should convince them to not make fun of me."

The consensus in society is that fucking children is bad, yet the sentient garbage fire that is Milo Yiannopoulos professed his belief that old men having sex with 13-year-old girls was a goddamn great thing. Two things happened after that the first being that people ridiculed his ass and the second being that his public reputation fell. That's how society works.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Not too long ago the consensus was that slavery was alright because the bible said so. There have been all kinds of things believed and done in the name of consensus.
A consensus is not a boogyman. Lots of bad shit has been done and a lot of good shit has been done as well. Trying to equate the "consensus" (10 people on the internet constitutes a consensus now apparently) that you're a cunt to those that supported slavery is vulgar and just bloody stupid. Standing up and saying fuck the consensus on a single inconsequential issue on an internet forum draws exactly zero parallels to those who actively opposed slavery.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  We (humans as a whole) like to look back on the past as if we are at the height of human existence, of course our ancestors were ignorant savages.
In almost every measurable statistic we ARE the height of human existence and our ancestors WERE both ignorant and savage. We know more today than we have known at any point in our history meanings that those that came before us were without question more ignorant of the world than we are now(as a whole). Our children and our children's children will be less ignorant than we arenow, that's ...kinda how progress works mate.

For fuck sake man you complain about us considering our ancestors ignorant and savage one sentence after pointing out our ancestors WERE just that by supporting the enslaving of other people as a societal norm.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Consider the arrogance of that belief.
[Image: giphy.gif]
Yes, CLEARLY how could our ability to pull dozens of different minerals out of the ground with our hands, separate them, make steel out of them, build skyscrapers hundreds of stories tall possibly compete with the ability to stack carved rocks really really well? An invitation soooooo impressive our ancestors weren't able to move past it for how many thousands of years again?
Truly...... we are the savages.Rolleyes

For shit sake man you should actually read and research your bloody links before you post them. The FIRST goddamn thing on that lsit isn't even man made.

Bosnian pyramid claims

"....The 'Bosnian pyramid complex' is a debunked pseudoarchaeological notion which has been promoted by author and businessman Semir Osmanagić. "

"....Direct study of the site by geologists, archeologists and other scientists have demonstrated that the hills are natural formations known as flatirons and that there are no signs of human construction involved.The European Association of Archaeologists has condemned the so-called 'Bosnian pyramids' as a "cruel hoax"."

"....According to Osmanagić, the dig in 2006 involved an international team of archaeologists from Australia, Austria, Ireland, United Kingdom and Slovenia. However, many archaeologists he named have stated they had not agreed to participate and were never at the site. He also claimed the support of an "Oxford archaeologist" who was actually an unqualified undergraduate, and his foundation's website claimed support of a British Member of Parliament, the name of whom did not match any sitting member."


(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  We learned language, art, music, fire, and so much more from our Neanderthal cousins.
This implies that homo sapiens had no art, music, language, or ability to make fire prior to meeting the Neanderthals which....well honestly....bloody prove it. Seriously, citation needed.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Who's to say they didn't have writing, lot can be lost in 250,000 years.
Oh ya and by that logic who's to say they didn't have lasguns and a goddamn 5.5 kilometer long Retribution class battleship in orbit over Holy Terra. You can't just invent a written language you have no evidence for out of thin air to try and justify your points.
If they had a written language don't you think they would have oh I dunno written it on their monuments like how every other culture with a written language did?

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  All of this was ridiculed and mocked by the consensus because at one point the facts didn't fit the accepted narrative.
All of what? The shit you just invented?

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Up until the last decade "scientists" were still pushing the idea that most mammals were monogamous, now we know less than 3%(perhaps, maybe, we really hope) are monogamous.
This is just factually incorrect, The Quarterly Review of Biology published "Monogamy in Mammals" by Devra G. Kleiman in 1977 that showed exactly the numbers you listed. There were numerous publications throughout the 80's and 90's that said the same thing. You will notice, I trust, that 1977 did not happen in the last decade.Drinking Beverage
You are just entirely wrong.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  I don't care about the consensus I care about the facts. Show me the raw data.
Does that include the ones you just make up? Drinking Beverage

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Rep systems are bunk.
You have failed to demonstrate this point. You have failed to show a single example of your claim actually working the way you say it would on this forum, and I have provided multiple examples of the exact opposite of what you are asserting baselessly.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Consensus is bunk.
Saying that "everyone believes X therefore X is true" is bunk, but the fact a view is held by the majority is not inherently bunk. reality and experience does not support your assertion.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  It's how you end up with an inbred ideology.
So the consensus that raping children is morally wrong is an inbred ideology? Cool gotcha, good to know.
No, just because there is a consensus does not mean that consensus is bad or inccorect. Arguing something is true BECAUSE it's the consensus IS bad.

(06-07-2017 05:04 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever you think your bound to be okay, because your in the safely moral majority."-- Christopher Hitchens

Yes, I'm sure when Hitchen made these comments he was totally talking about how 10 people on the internet who think you're a shithead, and the overwhelming consensus that that tooooooootally makes, is exactly what he was talking about.

Let me be 100% clear here: You were not IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM down repped for having a dissenting opinion. You were down repped for expressing that dissenting opinion like an asshole. And you will continue to be down repped because you chose to passive aggressively bitch about people expressing their opinion of you exactly where they are supposed to instead of correcting your behaviour.

^^^^^Expand the above to see my point by point arguments of the OP. With that outta the way lets continue.

(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  The criticism of reputation systems is not a criticism of the reputation system on this forum.
Uh-huh, it's just purely coincidental that, like every other thread about reputation here, it happened to be written directly after you gained a negative reputation. Shocking.

Also yes it bloody is. Of course, it is, by necessity in fact. If I sit down with a Nazi and start criticising Nazis am I not by necessity criticising the Nazi in front of me? You are just trying to have your cake and eat it to.
"Nazis are all scum who should be castrated but don't worry I'm not talking about you Nazi right in front of me just talking about Nazis."
You are full of soddin' nonsense mate.

(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Rep systems create a positive feedback loop in the group. In a social dynamic, positive feedback loops are enforced through ridicule and ostracism of members who contradict the accepted views.
There is a difference between the notion that something CAN happen and that something IS happening. A plane CAN fall out of the sky after take off, that does not mean that planes inherently will or MUST fall out of the sky.

You have failed, abjectly I might add, to provide a single example of the reputation system being abused or in any way compromised on this forum. You were not neg repped for your views just for the way you expressed and defended them.

Stalin has a reputation of being a pretty unpleasant fucker and I think that's perfectly reasonable.


(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  I actually didn't know that someone who was negative couldn't rate others. This is exactly the kind of positive feedback loop which I am criticising.
The rep system works this way for a very specific reason and is 100% legitimate and wise.

(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Even if the rep system were a negative feedback system I still wouldn't participate in it, because there are still problems in such a system.
Problems you have utterly failed to demonstrate have manifested on this forum. We are not going to, nor should we, get ride of a system because it MIGHT be problematic and especilly not if it's proven on multiple occasions to NOT be problematic in the way you assert it must be.
The system on this forum works and works well for what it is intended to do.

(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  As far as positive systems, without negative feedback it is easy to game the system in such a way that those who hold contrary views and opinions can easily be silenced, and or discredited simply for having a contrary view.
Demonstrate a single example of that on this form. Just one. Again as a reminder, you are NOT an example of this. I've provided 2 examples of the exact opposite and can give at least off the top of my head 4 more. Just give me one.


(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  This means that those with positive reps can game the system to silence individuals who are not only those who are personally contrary, but also those who hold contrary views.
Again...give me a single example of that happening on this forum. I'm frankly bored with your fuckin' boogyman, give actual examples of that happening because your "lolforumconsperacy" nonsense is trite and boring.

(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  (Silenced does not mean the person cannot post, rather that they are excluded from participating in the rep system).
The fact you can yell FIRE!! in the privacy of your own home but can't yell it in a crowded movie theatre does not mean you have been "silenced". There is not a single word, thought, view, or opinion you have been barred from publicly expressing or debating and you don't have a right to participate in the repping system it's a privilege.


(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  A possible solution.
To a problem that you haven't demonstrated exists on this forum? No thanks.

(07-07-2017 01:38 PM)BlkFnx Wrote:  Ridicule of position
"In my entire time being here on this forum I have never ONCE heard a person with an overwhelmingly positive reputation complain about the rep system. Not once to my knowledge."
For fuck sake man.....that's not an example of ridicule you bellend it's a statement of fact about an observation. Disagreeing with you is NOT ridicule. Pointing out the REALITY of this forum is not ridicule.


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Fuck me, I'm getting rusty lol

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08-07-2017, 01:31 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 01:34 AM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Consensus
So ....I'm fuckin' stupid and need to write out a retraction. I opened my first post with:
"Well, OP it seems like you have tucked your tail between your legs and noped the fuck outta here I just want to offer an observation if I may."

I came into the conversation late and didn't bother to read how old the thread was like a fuckin' amateur scrub. Accusing you of running away when your last post was like ...a day ago was stupid in the extreme, undeservedly disrespectful, and dishonorable. No excuse for that kinda shit from me, and you have my sincere apology. *edit* I'm not gonna delete it from my post, people should see my stupidity.

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08-07-2017, 04:44 AM
RE: Consensus
(08-07-2017 12:54 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  This is an atheist forum, that should be fairly clear given the name, and two of our most highly respected and highly repped members are a Calvinist and an Orthodox Jew. They both express the single most important dissenting view you can possibly have on an Athiest forum. Aliza has a 100% positive reputation while thinking every single one of us is wrong on the existence of God.

To be fair, Aliza isn't Orthodox. She's one of them Jews for Jesus.

#sigh
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08-07-2017, 04:47 AM
RE: Consensus
(08-07-2017 04:44 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 12:54 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  This is an atheist forum, that should be fairly clear given the name, and two of our most highly respected and highly repped members are a Calvinist and an Orthodox Jew. They both express the single most important dissenting view you can possibly have on an Athiest forum. Aliza has a 100% positive reputation while thinking every single one of us is wrong on the existence of God.

To be fair, Aliza isn't Orthodox. She's one of them Jews for Jesus.

If she's a Jew for Jesus then I'm Mohammed Ali.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-07-2017, 04:50 AM
RE: Consensus
My two pennies worth, I've been disrepped three times two of which were permanent and although not the same as getting a negative rep boy did it sting badly, however,once the butthurt wore off I learned valuable lessons from it that have prevented greater trouble down the line and stopped people I care for and respect being hurt by my clumsy mouth, made me think twice before posting in anger etc.
Mind you you do have to have the ability to care about where you are and who you are interacting with and honestly that's not a dig at the OP whom I personally have no problem with just an observation that the rep system can work to the betterment of personal development on a forum if you can look at it from the right perspective.
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08-07-2017, 04:54 AM
RE: Consensus
(08-07-2017 04:44 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 12:54 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  This is an atheist forum, that should be fairly clear given the name, and two of our most highly respected and highly repped members are a Calvinist and an Orthodox Jew. They both express the single most important dissenting view you can possibly have on an Athiest forum. Aliza has a 100% positive reputation while thinking every single one of us is wrong on the existence of God.

To be fair, Aliza isn't Orthodox. She's one of them Jews for Jesus.

I don't think so. I'm not sure what branch of Judaism, but...have you seen what she has to say about Jesus?
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08-07-2017, 05:00 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 05:04 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Consensus
(08-07-2017 04:47 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 04:44 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  To be fair, Aliza isn't Orthodox. She's one of them Jews for Jesus.

If she's a Jew for Jesus then I'm Mohammed Ali.


(08-07-2017 04:54 AM)julep Wrote:  I don't think so. I'm not sure what branch of Judaism, but...have you seen what she has to say about Jesus?

And yet another perfectly good joke is ruined yet again by you humorless lot.

#sigh
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08-07-2017, 05:03 AM
RE: Consensus
(08-07-2017 05:00 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 04:47 AM)morondog Wrote:  If she's a Jew for Jesus then I'm Mohammed Ali.


(08-07-2017 04:54 AM)julep Wrote:  I don't think so. I'm not sure what branch of Judaism, but...have you seen what she has to say about Jesus?

And yet another perfectly good joke is ruined yet again by you humorless lot.

Forgive us Lord Girly, as we forgive you...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-07-2017, 05:04 AM
RE: Consensus
(08-07-2017 04:54 AM)julep Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 04:44 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  To be fair, Aliza isn't Orthodox. She's one of them Jews for Jesus.

I don't think so. I'm not sure what branch of Judaism, but...have you seen what she has to say about Jesus?

That's right, I remember now. She was raised by Jews for Jesus and rebelled by going full Haredi.

#sigh
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08-07-2017, 05:22 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 05:30 AM by BlkFnx.)
RE: Consensus
(08-07-2017 01:31 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  So ....I'm fuckin' stupid and need to write out a retraction. I opened my first post with:
"Well, OP it seems like you have tucked your tail between your legs and noped the fuck outta here I just want to offer an observation if I may."

I came into the conversation late and didn't bother to read how old the thread was like a fuckin' amateur scrub. Accusing you of running away when your last post was like ...a day ago was stupid in the extreme, undeservedly disrespectful, and dishonorable. No excuse for that kinda shit from me, and you have my sincere apology. *edit* I'm not gonna delete it from my post, people should see my stupidity.

[Image: 6ca245e3f4e91785a2cf625073e34f4f0b68837f_hq.gif]

It happens to everyone at some point.

In response to your Bosnian Pyramid. No qualm, no equivocation, I am totally going to own that fuck up. I should have posted a link directly too Göbekli Tepe . In terms of the Neanderthal claim I should have linked Here and here for fire. Further while I personally find the arguments that it was Neanderthal's that invented music compelling the facts are disputed enough that I should not have made the claim. As to written language I am not claiming that there was or was not a written language that was lost. Rather stating that what we know about what's behind the wall of history is very little. We do not know where writing came from for example, only what the oldest KNOWN writing discovered is. I don't believe in gods, ancient aliens, or that our ancestors 100,000 years ago had laser guns (Though I will admit that would be freaking awesome). How many thousands of years would it take for evidence of modern humans to vanish if we all died off today. More importantly how difficult would it be to find traces of our civilization? And we cover a hell of a lot more of the earth and have built far more.

Homo Erectus fire

I will restate a question i asked previously. Who said I said consensus was a bad thing? Consensus can be bad or it can be good it depends on how it is being used. An argument from consensus (ad populum) is a fallacy. For example an old man sleeping with a 13 year old girl is neither right nor wrong because there is a consensus that it is wrong. What makes it wrong is the fact that there is a serious difference in the power dynamic.


[url=http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/2010/11/the-top-10-most-spectacularly-wrong-widely-held-scientific-theories/]more consensus gone wrong

This leaves aside the question of popular science gone wrong.
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