Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
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19-02-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(19-02-2017 11:51 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Bucky Ball Wrote:A real conservative would want the Constitution upheld.
I agree with you.
So, I have questions:
do you know what exactly they propose to do? how do they want to bring God in schools?
how do you personally understand separation of church and state?
please, with some examples
Betsey DeVos' entire life up to this point has been devoted to promoting religious private schools and putting them on an equal funding basis with public secular schools. She is an evangelical Christian so I do not think her concept of a religious school would take Mormon sensibilities into account.

The general strategy of folks like De Vos seems to be, to go to some kind of voucher system where you can send your child to any approved private or public school (presumably a Muslim, Sikh, Mormon or atheist-oriented school would not be among those approved), and at the same time, to somehow remove the prohibition against (allegedly voluntary) prayer and other religious references in all such schools. For example there were several situations last year alone in which public school sports coaches were reprimanded for praying before, during or after games, or in which teachers were reprimanded for alluding to the Bible or to Christian teachings in certain ways. I think it was Texas that wanted it taught that our legal system is "based on Mosaic law" despite that it is in fact based on English Common Law and certain conventions of international law. In general it has been established for some time now that you can't have group activities on school time that are in any way sectarian, even if they are supposedly "voluntary" because it is uncomfortable for children to "opt out" of such activities, so they end up subtly (and not-so-subtly) pressured into participating.
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19-02-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(15-02-2017 01:46 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 01:20 PM)mordant Wrote:  @pablo, I am given to understand that the DOE simply administers federal aid to schools. That aid, of course, comes with certain strings attached, like standards and best practices that must be adhered to.

Demonstrating the craven nature of DOE opponents, they want this aid without strings. They could, after all, simply decline the federal funds and self-finance whatever programs they want. But no ... they want the $$ and the ability to squander them as they see fit.

I am not sure what eliminating the DOE would do to federal funding. I presume "eliminate the DOE" must be code words for "just give schools money and go away". There will still have to be a bureaucracy to disburse the funds, and it might be called something else, but this has to really be about removing restrictions such as that ID or creationism can't be taught, or that evolution must be taught, or that explicitly or implicitly compulsory religious instruction is not to be dispensed in public schools (or schools of any kind that receive federal funds).

I haven't really looked at the detailed GOP agenda on this but I have to assume it is along these lines. Anyone know for a fact?

Considering how the religious right are particularly sneaky and underhanded when it comes to trying to get prayer/the bible/ID into public schools, I'm inclined to believe that they're trying to do it again.

That's the interim plan. Also included: history and social studies textbooks that rewrite history to portray the US as uniquely god-sanctified, minimize atrocities like slavery, and promote submission to authorities. The end goal, though, is similar to the anti Roe vs. Wade types.

Some of the rabid religious righties I know online--especially the ones who refer to public schools as "government indoctrination centers"--have a goal to eliminate public schools, period. DOE dismantling to be followed by defunding, then the same at the state and town levels. Either pay for private school on your own or have the moms stay home full-time with the kids (the way god meant for them to) and home school.
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19-02-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(19-02-2017 01:10 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 11:51 AM)Alla Wrote:  I agree with you.
So, I have questions:
do you know what exactly they propose to do? how do they want to bring God in schools?
how do you personally understand separation of church and state?
please, with some examples
Betsey DeVos' entire life up to this point has been devoted to promoting religious private schools and putting them on an equal funding basis with public secular schools. She is an evangelical Christian so I do not think her concept of a religious school would take Mormon sensibilities into account.

The general strategy of folks like De Vos seems to be, to go to some kind of voucher system where you can send your child to any approved private or public school (presumably a Muslim, Sikh, Mormon or atheist-oriented school would not be among those approved), and at the same time, to somehow remove the prohibition against (allegedly voluntary) prayer and other religious references in all such schools. For example there were several situations last year alone in which public school sports coaches were reprimanded for praying before, during or after games, or in which teachers were reprimanded for alluding to the Bible or to Christian teachings in certain ways. I think it was Texas that wanted it taught that our legal system is "based on Mosaic law" despite that it is in fact based on English Common Law and certain conventions of international law. In general it has been established for some time now that you can't have group activities on school time that are in any way sectarian, even if they are supposedly "voluntary" because it is uncomfortable for children to "opt out" of such activities, so they end up subtly (and not-so-subtly) pressured into participating.

Thank you for the answer.
Personally I don't mind prayers in public schools because I believe in God of the Bible but I would never promoted this. I send my children to school to learn different important things. To teach prayers and religion is my obligation as a parent. There is also Church for this.
I think I am on your side about this. But I like the idea that parents can have school choice if they don't like the school that is assigned to their zip code. I think it makes sense.

I also can easily defend those who want to place satanic stand right next to Nativity stand on public property. Do I like it? Nope. I hate it. But I will defend it. I understand the point they make.
I defend satanic stand on public square not only because I am on the Constitution side but I am also on God's side. He gave to men moral agency. I can NOT take it away from men.

English is my second language.
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20-02-2017, 05:11 AM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(19-02-2017 11:51 AM)Alla Wrote:  So, I have questions:
do you know what exactly they propose to do? how do they want to bring God in schools?
how do you personally understand separation of church and state?
please, with some examples

It's not a matter of "how" the proselytizers want to introduce gods into public schools. The simple answer is that it should not be allowed in any shape, form or practice. End of story.

The absolute separation of church and state is also critical. Parliament should never debate the alleged and/or concomitant religious ramifications of what should be primarily secular-based legislation. And conversely, the church should never be allowed to make public comment on matters of government legislature or broader societal issues (such as education in public schools). Church leaders are invariably biassed, bigoted, or both.

A longer-term solution to all this is to accelerate even more the already increasing rate of non-theism in Australia, so that by (say) 2050 the practices of religion will be virtually non-existent.

At our 2011 Federal census, 22% of people reported 'no religion' whilst Catholics accounted for 25% and Anglicans only 17% of people, thus proving the rapid decline of religion in Australia.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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23-02-2017, 06:12 AM
Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
Let's not use DOE to denote Department of Education. DOE is the Department of Energy, which is about 100 times more useful than the Department of Education. Ok carry on...


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25-02-2017, 08:53 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(19-02-2017 07:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 01:10 PM)mordant Wrote:  Betsey DeVos' entire life up to this point has been devoted to promoting religious private schools and putting them on an equal funding basis with public secular schools. She is an evangelical Christian so I do not think her concept of a religious school would take Mormon sensibilities into account.

The general strategy of folks like De Vos seems to be, to go to some kind of voucher system where you can send your child to any approved private or public school (presumably a Muslim, Sikh, Mormon or atheist-oriented school would not be among those approved), and at the same time, to somehow remove the prohibition against (allegedly voluntary) prayer and other religious references in all such schools. For example there were several situations last year alone in which public school sports coaches were reprimanded for praying before, during or after games, or in which teachers were reprimanded for alluding to the Bible or to Christian teachings in certain ways. I think it was Texas that wanted it taught that our legal system is "based on Mosaic law" despite that it is in fact based on English Common Law and certain conventions of international law. In general it has been established for some time now that you can't have group activities on school time that are in any way sectarian, even if they are supposedly "voluntary" because it is uncomfortable for children to "opt out" of such activities, so they end up subtly (and not-so-subtly) pressured into participating.

Thank you for the answer.
Personally I don't mind prayers in public schools because I believe in God of the Bible but I would never promoted this. I send my children to school to learn different important things. To teach prayers and religion is my obligation as a parent. There is also Church for this.
I think I am on your side about this. But I like the idea that parents can have school choice if they don't like the school that is assigned to their zip code. I think it makes sense.

I also can easily defend those who want to place satanic stand right next to Nativity stand on public property. Do I like it? Nope. I hate it. But I will defend it. I understand the point they make.
I defend satanic stand on public square not only because I am on the Constitution side but I am also on God's side. He gave to men moral agency. I can NOT take it away from men.

Does this mean that you would have no problem if your child was required to pray to Allah five times each day while at school?

Disappointing theists since 1968
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25-02-2017, 09:23 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
That's the question I throw back at people who bitch about there being 'no more prayer in schools.'

They usually reply with some kind of generalization: The US is majority Christian, so majority rules!
Or, the U.S. was founded on Christian principals, not Islamic ...

"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu."

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26-02-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(25-02-2017 08:53 PM)A. Secular Human Wrote:  Does this mean that you would have no problem if your child was required to pray to Allah five times each day while at school?

I would have a problem with this. But I wouldn't have a problem if somebody else's child who is Muslim could do this in school.
I believe in this: either all are allowed to say their own prayers or nobody prays in public schools. I am for fairness.
This is why I will defend satanic stand next to Nativity stand on public square.

English is my second language.
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27-02-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(15-02-2017 01:20 PM)mordant Wrote:  I am not sure what eliminating the DOE would do to federal funding.

You'd save about 1.7% of the federal budget. ~68 billion.

A drop in the bucket.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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27-02-2017, 08:11 PM
RE: Conservative groups, Dep. of Education and god
(19-02-2017 07:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  But I like the idea that parents can have school choice if they don't like the school that is assigned to their zip code. I think it makes sense.

US parents have always had the right to send their kids to parochial school rather than public school, if such was their desire. I went to public schools as a kid, and was fortunately only subjected to Catholic school for an hour each Friday for 7 years for "religious instruction". Other kids in my neighborhood attended Catholic school full time. There were also many Protestant and Jewish parochial schools available.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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