Considerations In Talking With Theists
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17-08-2012, 08:06 AM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 07:48 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-08-2012 07:42 AM)DLJ Wrote:  No need to thank me, it was an easy mistake to make.

I don't think the point of this Thread was well taken.

Kinda seemed to produce the opposite effect Dodgy

So the irony wasn't completely lost on you. Cool. Big Grin

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17-08-2012, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2012 08:19 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 07:41 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Do you know God does not exist?
Or, is it your opinion that God does not exist?
I don't accept your dichotomy. It is neither of the two options.

(17-08-2012 07:41 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  What is your claim?
This notion of Theists being delusional, must be based on fact and not "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty".
One fact would be the absence of any evidence to support your belief.

(17-08-2012 07:41 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  So, what were you saying again?
Not a matter of opinion?Consider
Yes, indeed. 'Glad that you understand it now. Yes

(17-08-2012 07:38 AM)Impulse Wrote:  That's precisely what I'm talking about. Labels such as "delusional" accomplish nothing productive. There are plenty of intelligent minded theists who have simply come to different conclusions about the universe than atheists. Whether or not they agree with you, why insult them?
Being intelligent and being deluded are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, why would that be considered an insult if it is, per definition, the correct way to describe their belief?

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17-08-2012, 08:35 AM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 08:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(17-08-2012 07:38 AM)Impulse Wrote:  That's precisely what I'm talking about. Labels such as "delusional" accomplish nothing productive. There are plenty of intelligent minded theists who have simply come to different conclusions about the universe than atheists. Whether or not they agree with you, why insult them?
Being intelligent and being deluded are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, why would that be considered an insult if it is, per definition, the correct way to describe their belief?
Regardless of actual truth, at the very least their way of thinking is truth to them and therefore, to call it delusional, is insulting to them. And there is really no productive reason to do so. That label is just a poor substitute for real discussion. What specifically do you find to be a false belief or mistaken opinion (i.e., delusion) and why do you find it to be as such? That would be the more constructive discussion. Now, I do understand that it wasn't likely your intention to get into that sort of discussion, but if so then, in your shoes, I would simply have not commented at all.

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17-08-2012, 08:46 AM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Regardless of actual truth, at the very least their way of thinking is truth to them and therefore, to call it delusional, is insulting to them.
Sure, they may concieve it as an insult, but you can't prohibit people from feeling that way. A good amount of theists take it as an offense if you just tell them that you are non-religious.

(17-08-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  And there is really no productive reason to do so. That label is just a poor substitute for real discussion.
I would be able to agree with that as far as debates/discussion go.

(17-08-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  What specifically do you find to be a false belief or mistaken opinion (i.e., delusion) and why do you find it to be as such? That would be the more constructive discussion. Now, I do understand that it wasn't likely your intention to get into that sort of discussion, but if so then, in your shoes, I would simply have not commented at all.
You're correct, that was not my intention at all. I've cited the definiton of the word and I think it's sufficient to be able to determine the difference between a delusion and reality.

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17-08-2012, 08:47 AM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(17-08-2012 08:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Being intelligent and being deluded are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, why would that be considered an insult if it is, per definition, the correct way to describe their belief?
Regardless of actual truth, at the very least their way of thinking is truth to them and therefore, to call it delusional, is insulting to them. And there is really no productive reason to do so. That label is just a poor substitute for real discussion. What specifically do you find to be a false belief or mistaken opinion (i.e., delusion) and why do you find it to be as such? That would be the more constructive discussion. Now, I do understand that it wasn't likely your intention to get into that sort of discussion, but if so then, in your shoes, I would simply have not commented at all.

Right, but to some people, it's ok to be insulting as long as it's "fact".

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17-08-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 08:46 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Sure, they may concieve it as an insult, but you can't prohibit people from feeling that way. A good amount of theists take it as an offense if you just tell them that you are non-religious.

Theists who take things like you being an Atheist offensively should not be an excuse to be snide.
There are reasonable people, like myself, that don't take it offensively that you are an Atheist. If I did, then I need help comprehending the title of this website.
In any case, wanting to justify reasons to call someone delusional sounds more like you just want to argue that the definition of what you're calling them, is in-fact exclusive to that person and their belief.

(17-08-2012 08:46 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I've cited the definiton of the word and I think it's sufficient to be able to determine the difference between a delusion and reality.

A lot of things you say have implications that you have certainty of what reality is. Now, most Atheists I know do not claim this. They simply say "I am not certain that god does not exist, I just believe there is no god on the basis that there is no sufficient evidence".

Vosur, you get literal with me in almost every response, and that's alright. I just get literal back at you (citing definitions and such).
So, if you want to be literal, I want to know the definite, literal stance you have as an Atheist, even if you've already stated it.
For you to say that Theists do not believe in reality and are therefore delusional, isn't just stating "fact", it's stating your opinion based on what you perceive as evidence and reality.
But in order for you to have the firmest grasp on reality, you need to have exhaustive knowledge of reality that exceeds every human being to a point that you have absolute certainty of something, like god, not existing.
Until then, the definition of delusion - "belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason" would only apply to the belief in God if there were such a thing as evidence of something not existing. It still boils down to opinion.

If you are 100% certain that god does not exist then you are not just an Atheist, but a Gnostic Atheist.
In which case I would take your considering me delusional to be something that you know. I would then want to know more from you since you have superior knowledge that would greatly help me.

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17-08-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 08:47 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-08-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Regardless of actual truth, at the very least their way of thinking is truth to them and therefore, to call it delusional, is insulting to them. And there is really no productive reason to do so. That label is just a poor substitute for real discussion. What specifically do you find to be a false belief or mistaken opinion (i.e., delusion) and why do you find it to be as such? That would be the more constructive discussion. Now, I do understand that it wasn't likely your intention to get into that sort of discussion, but if so then, in your shoes, I would simply have not commented at all.

Right, but to some people, it's ok to be insulting as long as it's "fact".

It's only insulting if you read it an angry voice.

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17-08-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 11:14 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  In any case, wanting to justify reasons to call someone delusional sounds more like you just want to argue that the definition of what you're calling them, is in-fact exclusive to that person and their belief.
The term applies to every person that holds and maintains a belief without any evidence, one that has no basis in reality. Someone who claims to have been abducted by aliens without any evidence is just as delusional as someone who claims that he has been miraculously healed by a supernatural force without any evidence.

(17-08-2012 11:14 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  A lot of things you say have implications that you have certainty of what reality is. Now, most Atheists I know do not claim this. They simply say "I am not certain that god does not exist, I just believe there is no god on the basis that there is no sufficient evidence".
Atheism has nothing to do with believing.

(17-08-2012 11:14 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Vosur, you get literal with me in almost every response, and that's alright. I just get literal back at you (citing definitions and such).
So, if you want to be literal, I want to know the definite, literal stance you have as an Atheist, even if you've already stated it.
For you to say that Theists do not believe in reality and are therefore delusional, isn't just stating "fact", it's stating your opinion based on what you perceive as evidence and reality.
What are you talking about? Reality is objective. Whether or not you believe that the moon is made out of green cheese doesn't change anything about it's actual properties. My "perception" of reality is the same as that of everyone else who is not deluded/intoxicated/hallucinating/etc. As for the evidence: we're still waiting for you to share yours with us.

ob·jec·tive
adjective
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased

(17-08-2012 11:14 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  But in order for you to have the firmest grasp on reality, you need to have exhaustive knowledge of reality that exceeds every human being to a point that you have absolute certainty of something, like god, not existing.
Until then, the definition of delusion - "belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason" would only apply to the belief in God if there were such a thing as evidence of something not existing. It still boils down to opinion.
From the dictionary:

de·lu·sion·al
adjective
1.
having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions: Senators who think they will get agreement on a comprehensive tax bill are delusional.
2.
maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness: He was so delusional and paranoid that he thought everybody was conspiring against him.

Cherry-pick the definitions all you want, that won't change anything at the actual meaning of the word in this context.

(17-08-2012 11:14 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  If you are 100% certain that god does not exist then you are not just an Atheist, but a Gnostic Atheist.
In which case I would take your considering me delusional to be something that you know. I would then want to know more from you since you have superior knowledge that would greatly help me.
I'd most likely consider myself to be a 6 on the spectrum of theistic probability.

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17-08-2012, 12:04 PM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
I am a strong atheist holding that the type of God described in the bible contradicts it's self so much that it's existence is null.

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17-08-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: Considerations In Talking With Theists
(17-08-2012 11:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  What are you talking about? Reality is objective. Whether or not you believe that the moon is made out of green cheese doesn't change anything about it's actual properties. My "perception" of reality is the same as that of everyone else who is not deluded/intoxicated/hallucinating/etc.

So this isn't really about behavior in conducting productive conversation as much as it is you just claiming you're right.

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