Conspiracy requires fundamentalism?

[Denicio]

I have come across many of these Conspiracy types.
What i find to be almost 'fist in glove' is the fact that they all share some deep down Christian fundamentalism.
Each consider Alex Jones and Glenn Beck to be hero's...both of which are hopelessly out to lunch via religion.

Do you guys see this as well?

There seems to be this rational disconnect...something like a self duologue of "Well, i believe the talking bush, talking snakes, virgin births...so Tower 7 and the Skull and bones is not so far fetched"

What do you guys think?

D

[Zatamon]

(23-09-2011 01:34 PM)Denicio Wrote:  What do you guys think?

The possibility of conspiracy is not to be sneered at with automatic knee-jerk reaction.

History is full of reliable accounts of conspiracies.

How about the well-documented (by the Germans) operation code-named "canned goods"

"Concentration-camp inmates in Germany were drugged, carried to
the Polish border, dressed in Polish uniforms, spread out on
the ground around a German radio station and shot dead. After
which an SS officer made an inflaming speech on the German
radio station, pretending to be the officer of a polish unit
that just attacked Germany. Hitler used it next day to justify
his attack against Poland."

See "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.

Or about the Reichstag Fire?

Lots more to find if one keeps looking.

Of course it does not mean that every conspiracy theory is true.

However, some are and we only learn about them much later, if ever.

[BnW]

I think you need to first define "conspiracy". I would not define what the Germans did to kick off WWII as a "conspiracy", personally.

[Zatamon]

(23-09-2011 02:17 PM)BnW Wrote:  I think you need to first define "conspiracy". I would not define what the Germans did to kick off WWII as a "conspiracy", personally.

con·spir·a·cyNoun/kənˈspirəsē/
1. A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.

I think the example qualifies.

Unless we define 'conspiracy' as something we can sneer at?

[BnW]

Ok, so let's define it simply. It's a group of people acting together secretly to do something unlawful. Fair enough. Yes, there is no doubt there are conspiracies. The Mafia operated for years in Italy and the US and that was a giant conspiracy. The drug cartels in Mexico and Columbia are, to some extent, a conspiracy (the "secret" part of the definition isn't quite working for them as they are fairly obvious). So, sure, conspiracies no doubt exist.

What I bristle at is the idea of these far reaching giant conspiracies that no one can ever prove and for which no actual evidence is ever presented. The JFK assassination, 9/11, the Free Masons, etc. The idea that there are large groups of people who are all "in" on it and none of them ever talk or in any way give away the secret is simply nonsense. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of human beings realizes these huge conspiracies cannot exist. If you have a secret it is only a secret for as long as you don't tell anyone. Once two people know, then it is a matter of time before 3 people know. And then 4. And then 50. And then 600. All the examples people throw out of actual conspiracies all have one thing in common: someone revealed the secret at some point.

So, yes, conspiracies do exist. But, let's be honest here and admit that we are not talking about the Mafia, or the Nazis kicking off WWII, or any of these other more minor events. What we are talking about with this questions, and this topic in general, is the idea of these world wide reaching conspiracies by secret government cabals or whomever that impact our lives. We are talking about things like the 9/11 stuff or whatever the massive conspiratorial government cover-up/secret plan is. Everyone thinks Dr. Evil is out there stroking is cat and plotting to steal 100 beeelion dollars or something like that. When we get to those types of conspiracies, my knee jerk reaction is they are all bullshit. Find me actual evidence to support any of these fantasies and I'll happily consider it. And, by "evidence" I don't mean youtube videos that throw stuff out that is completely unsubstantiated. You want me to give two seconds of time to the possibility that the US government mined the Twin Towers and killed ~3,000 people? Find me someone who was in on it. Not ridiculous accusations that have been shot down and disputed with scientific evidence time and time again.

[Zatamon]

(23-09-2011 02:40 PM)BnW Wrote:  So, yes, conspiracies do exist. But, let's be honest here and admit that we are not talking about the Mafia, or the Nazis kicking off WWII, or any of these other more minor events.

(my emphsis)

Hahahahahaha -- sorry, that got me laughing.

WWII as a minor event, compared to 9/11

Apart from that, I know what you mean and you have a point.

However, in my mind, it was possible that the top brass knew about 9/11 in advance and let it happen because it was so damn convenient for their purposes.

No proof, of course, just nasty suspicion, based on knowledge of history and some knowledge of the characters involved.

Winston Churchill knew about the attack on Coventry and let it happen to protect the secret of Enigma.

Leaders never worry too much about losing a pawn or two in their chess game if there is an advantage to be made by other people's sacrifices.

[Denicio]

How about how recent CT's seem to be intertwined with Religion.....lets stay on topic.

The 9/11 CT's and beyond all seem to stem out of religion, from my vantage point. You guys see this too?

THe Alex Jones' of the world seem to be the guys chumming the waters with such nonsense.

D

[BnW]

(23-09-2011 02:50 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Hahahahahaha -- sorry, that got me laughing.

WWII as a minor event, compared to 9/11

Poor typing on my part. I meant to say "and other more minor events". Obviously WWII was not a minor event as it re-shaped the world. However, 9/11 has to some extent too. How much? Too early to say.

And, as for the topic at hand: judging by the number of professed atheists I've seen latching onto the 9/11 conspiracy garbage, I do not think that religious fundamentalism is at all a requirement to believe in conspiracy theories. In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian fundy that believed 9/11 was anything but an attack by Muslim extremists.

One other thing: I still don't see the Coventry/Enigma example as in any way relevant to 9/11. The key difference was that England was at war and fighting for her survival. Letting the Germans know they cracked Enigma could have meant the end of England as a nation. Churchill was, in my view, perfectly justified in his decision. There is no comparable reason the US would have allowed 9/11 to happen. And, the number of people who would have to be "in" on that decision would be substantial. You mean in 10 years no one felt guilty came forward? Not one person? Given how much money that story would be worth, I find that impossible to believe.