Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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18-07-2016, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2016 05:47 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 03:27 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Where did you get the idea that you taught me about the Historian's fallacy? It's been known by me for more than 15 years. It's one of the first things we learn.

YOU said my example with the witches was not similar to belief in the resurrection, as YOU saw the witch event as superstition. YOU failed to see the very fallacy you claimed you knew about. Obviously you couldn't recognize it when you committed it. Obviously you didn't "learn" it very well if you couldn't detect that you were committing it.

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18-07-2016, 04:30 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 12:42 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  What we view as constituting a village/town/city in modern times and in our culture may have absolutely nothing in common with how they were viewed by ancient peoples in a distant ancient culture.

I studied the ancients. Cassius Dio, Polybius, Suetonius, Ammianus etc. Are you telling me Ammianus, who was with Julian, did not know of what he spoke???

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18-07-2016, 05:41 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 04:30 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(18-07-2016 12:42 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  What we view as constituting a village/town/city in modern times and in our culture may have absolutely nothing in common with how they were viewed by ancient peoples in a distant ancient culture.

I studied the ancients. Cassius Dio, Polybius, Suetonius, Ammianus etc. Are you telling me Ammianus, who was with Julian, did not know of what he spoke???

No, you misunderstand the fallacy. Let me explain ..

Our modern understandings of modern things in our modern world should not be imposed upon an ancient and distant culture in our efforts to understand that ancient and distant culture.

It's like if, for example, we read that Cassius Dio was looking for something and he couldn't find it, and then we say something like, "Why didn't he just Google it?"

Yes, that's an extreme comparison, but it gets the point across.
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18-07-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 04:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-07-2016 03:27 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Where did you get the idea that you taught me about the Historian's fallacy? It's been known by me for more than 15 years. It's one of the first things we learn.

YOU said my example with the witches was not similar to belief in the resurrection, as YOU saw the witch even as superstition. YOU failed to see the very fallacy you claimed you knew about. Obviously you couldn't recognize it when you committed it. Obviously you didn't "learn" it very well if you couldn't detect that you were committing it.

There was no fallacy at all. Both perceptions of the witches and the resurrection were viewed from both perspectives, modern and ancient.

From our modern perspective, both were superstitions.

But from the perspectives of the persons involved in the witch trials and the persons involved with the resurrection, neither viewed it as a superstition. It was their reality.
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18-07-2016, 05:48 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
So when Josephus and his army march and counter-march through the area and never so much as mention "Nazareth" you take that as evidence that it was there?

How about when Photius commented on Justus of Tiberias:

Quote:As well as a history of the war, Justus also wrote a chronicle of the kings of Israel from the time of Moses to Agrippa II, which Photios remarked failed to make any mention of Jesus Christ.

You dismiss that and think that Justus told the whole silly story anyway?

You're grasping at straws.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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18-07-2016, 05:51 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 05:41 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  No, you misunderstand the fallacy. Let me explain ..

Please do not tell me what I do and do not understand. I've been studying history for 36 years. Dio had access to Roman records. Ammianus served with more than one emperor. He was there.

Ammianus Marcellinus.

I also read modern history and keep up to date with archeology.

Quote:Our modern understandings of modern things in our modern world should not be imposed upon an ancient and distant culture in our efforts to understand that ancient and distant culture.

Indeed. This is why I read the entire Loeb classical library.

Quote:It's like if, for example, we read that Cassius Dio was looking for something and he couldn't find it, and then we say something like, "Why didn't he just Google it?"

Yes, that's an extreme comparison, but it gets the point across.


Yeah, I do not do this.

Now tell me this. What has the existence or non existence of Nazareth to do with whether or not Jesus existed? It offers no proof to the subject heading of this thread and yet you have derailed it entirely.

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18-07-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 05:48 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  So when Josephus and his army march and counter-march through the area and never so much as mention "Nazareth" you take that as evidence that it was there?

No, of course not. And likewise, you should not take it as evidence that it wasn't there either.

And Josephus only mentioned a small portion of the towns and villages in Judea, so should we assume that all the others he didn't mention were also not in existence?

Quote:How about when Photius commented on Justus of Tiberias:

Quote:As well as a history of the war, Justus also wrote a chronicle of the kings of Israel from the time of Moses to Agrippa II, which Photios remarked failed to make any mention of Jesus Christ.

You dismiss that and think that Justus told the whole silly story anyway?

Was Jesus designated by the Caesar as being a king of Israel while Israel was under Roman rule?

No, he wasn't. Therefore, Justus has no reason to mention him.

Quote:You're grasping at straws.

And you amuse the fuck out me with your stupidity.

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18-07-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 05:51 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Now tell me this. What has the existence or non existence of Nazareth to do with whether or not Jesus existed? It offers no proof to the subject heading of this thread and yet you have derailed it entirely.

I didn't bring up the Nazareth never existed crap, the mythers did.

And you're right, Nazareth would have existed in the 1st century regardless if Jesus existed or not.
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18-07-2016, 06:09 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 06:07 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(18-07-2016 05:51 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Now tell me this. What has the existence or non existence of Nazareth to do with whether or not Jesus existed? It offers no proof to the subject heading of this thread and yet you have derailed it entirely.

I didn't bring up the Nazareth never existed crap, the mythers did.

And you're right, Nazareth would have existed in the 1st century regardless if Jesus existed or not.

Then why do you keep harping on about it?

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18-07-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(18-07-2016 06:09 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(18-07-2016 06:07 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  I didn't bring up the Nazareth never existed crap, the mythers did.

And you're right, Nazareth would have existed in the 1st century regardless if Jesus existed or not.

Then why do you keep harping on about it?

Because the discussion about it keeps harping on and on.
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