Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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19-07-2016, 11:30 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No when you have archaeological evidence from a site with a variety of graves, an excavated farm, pottery, coins, all dating to the period in question, it should go without saying that this was an occupied town that existed at the time.

Sorry, but none of that says "town" to me. And you need to define "the period in question" and "at that time". "There were a few people living in the area some time during the first century" is quite different from "There was a town/village at this specific location in the year 4 B.C.". Other ancient towns (such as Pompeii, to give but one example) have a lot more in the way of building and structures than "an excavated farm".

I'm not saying there wasn't a town there. I honestly don't know. But none of your flimsy evidence proves there was.

No, a town doesn't indicate scale, not in that period at least, a few people living in particular region, would classify as a town. If Nazareth was a small region in that area, with a small population, it would be town. In fact it's recognized as an insignificant region, in the Gospels themselves, so supportive of an area small in scale. The question of Nazareth isn't dependent on the size of the area, just the existence of such an occupied area at the time of Jesus. The archaeological evidence, leaves little doubt, that it did exists at the time, regardless of all the hand waving being done here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-07-2016, 11:39 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Sorry, but none of that says "town" to me. And you need to define "the period in question" and "at that time". "There were a few people living in the area some time during the first century" is quite different from "There was a town/village at this specific location in the year 4 B.C.". Other ancient towns (such as Pompeii, to give but one example) have a lot more in the way of building and structures than "an excavated farm".

I'm not saying there wasn't a town there. I honestly don't know. But none of your flimsy evidence proves there was.

No, a town doesn't indicate scale, not in that period at least, a few people living in particular region, would classify as a town. If Nazareth was a small region in that area, with a small population, it would be town. In fact it's recognized as an insignificant region, in the Gospels themselves, so supportive of an area small in scale. The question of Nazareth isn't dependent on the size of the area, just the existence of such an occupied area at the time of Jesus. The archaeological evidence, leaves little doubt, that it did exists at the time, regardless of all the hand waving being done here.

(1) OK, "town" can cover settlements of various sizes, but all those sizes are more than one building. "An excavated farm" (the only real evidence you've provided) is not a town.

(2) The Gospels were written many years after the supposed events, and are more likely fiction than fact, so they're not evidence of anything.
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19-07-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 08:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Most people here seem to lack the sort of balls to carve out their own position...

I find this rather ironic, considering that you refused to define your beliefs until someone started a thread on the subject.

Or perhaps there's a better word than ironic...

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19-07-2016, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 19-07-2016 11:49 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  (1) OK, "town" can cover settlements of various sizes, but all those sizes are more than one building. "An excavated farm" (the only real evidence you've provided) is not a town.

No, when you have dig site, where an excavated farm is uncovered, a variety of grave stones, pottery, coinage, etc... all dating to the time of Jesus, you have a town.

Quote: The Gospels were written many years after the supposed events, and are more likely fiction than fact, so they're not evidence of anything.

No the Gospels, the NT writings are evidence for a variety of things, they include first hand accounts, like that of Paul, and support of a variety of historical happenings, and people in that period.

I understand atheists here have their own rules here, that historians and scholars of the ancient world would likely roll their eyes at.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-07-2016, 11:49 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  (1) OK, "town" can cover settlements of various sizes, but all those sizes are more than one building. "An excavated farm" (the only real evidence you've provided) is not a town.

No, when you have dig site, where an excavated farm is uncovered, a variety of grave stones, pottery, coinage, etc... all dating to the time of Jesus, you have a town.

If you say so. I don't find it convincing. Towns have buildings, as in more than one building.
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19-07-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  (1) OK, "town" can cover settlements of various sizes, but all those sizes are more than one building. "An excavated farm" (the only real evidence you've provided) is not a town.

No, when you have dig site, where an excavated farm is uncovered, a variety of grave stones, pottery, coinage, etc... all dating to the time of Jesus, you have a town.

Quote: The Gospels were written many years after the supposed events, and are more likely fiction than fact, so they're not evidence of anything.

No the Gospels, the NT writings are evidence for a variety of things, they include first hand accounts, like that of Paul, and support of a variety of historical happenings, and people in that period.

I understand atheists here have their own rules here, that historians and scholars of the ancient world would likely roll their eyes at.

Gulliver's Travels, Moby-Dick, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn are all "first-hand accounts", and even contain names of real places and references to real historical events of those time periods. Can I conclude that everything in those books is historical fact?
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19-07-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 10:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  More like you've erected your own strawman, lol.

Nope. You just never studied theology. You know squat about your own cult.

Quote:You on the other hand suggested that the early followers of Jesus might not have believed that he was a historical person, and in the same breath suggest the original followers wouldn't be christian. You apparently can't even make sense of your own suggestions.

I never said that. Lying for Jebus again.

Quote:You claimed to know what constitutes as a christian or not a christian, and I wanted to see you use your own criteria to classify whether these individuals fall under the christian or not christian label. Apparently that's too difficult of a request for you to comply with.

I know how Christians define their own membership requirements.
You meet none of them.
No community, no Jesus... no nothing.
You cooked up your one man cult and named it what you decided to name it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-07-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:49 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, when you have dig site, where an excavated farm is uncovered, a variety of grave stones, pottery, coinage, etc... all dating to the time of Jesus, you have a town.

If you say so. I don't find it convincing. Towns have buildings, as in more than one building.

Yes, I know if we sent you out on an archaeological dig, and you uncovered a site with an excavated farm house, numerous graves, pottery, coinage, spread around all dating to the 1st century, you apparently would conclude that it was region occupied by a single farm house, and the occupants of the farm house only.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-07-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I know how Christians define their own membership requirements.
You meet none of them.
No community, no Jesus... no nothing.
You cooked up your one man cult and named it what you decided to name it.

Ah so you know what it means to be a Christian.

Then tell me then. Are Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan Christians?

Is Donald Trump a Christian?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-07-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:49 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If you say so. I don't find it convincing. Towns have buildings, as in more than one building.

Yes, I know if we sent you out on an archaeological dig, and you uncovered a site with an excavated farm house, numerous graves, pottery, coinage, spread around all dating to the 1st century, you apparently would conclude that it was region occupied by a single farm house, and the occupants of the farm house only.

I would conclude that there was a farm and a graveyard there. Again, I have seen numerous farms and graveyards out in the country during my bike rides, sometimes next to each other. In no case have I ever thought of any of these as a "town". In order to conclude that there was a town somewhere, I would need actual evidence of a town. A farm and a graveyard are not such evidence.
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