Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 2.33 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-07-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 11:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:53 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Gulliver's Travels, Moby-Dick, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn are all "first-hand accounts", and even contain names of real places and references to real historical events of those time periods. Can I conclude that everything in those books is historical fact?

No, they're not first-hand accounts, they're first person fictional narratives, written respectively by Swift, Melville , and Twain. The first-person aspect is used by these authors as a literary device in their fictional works.

Just like the gospels. The gospels are not history.
"The Power of Parable: How Fiction by Jesus Became Fiction about Jesus"
--- John Dominic Crossan.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
19-07-2016, 01:37 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 08:31 AM)ohio_drg Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 08:15 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  I keep seeing this from uneducated persons such as yourself. therefore ...

Please provide one single example of anyone else in history who actually was entitled as Christ. I don't want any oblique references, I want a precise example such as "Joseph Christ, " or "John who was called Christ."

Until you, or anyone else, can provide exactly that, then you and anyone else are full of shit.

Big Grin

What formal education do you have? Besides if you have been in academic circles long enough you would know merely getting an education on a topic is not enough to become an expert.

I am a seasonal instructor. I have a Masters. The reason they call it a "Masters" is because I am a master of the subject, which is an expert. It's what is required here where I work.

Can I be wrong? Of course I can! But history is not always a matter of what is right or wrong, but rather is all comes down to the most probable explanation of the evidence.

Despite the fact that I can accept historically that somebody named Jesus Christ is the most probable explanation for the evidence, it by no means eliminates all other possibilities. It only means that historicity is the front runner in the debate, mind you, by a long shot.

The problem with Mythicism is that the proponents of it have no evidence, and no reasonable arguments to explain the evidence we have. Their constant claims of massive interpolations, forgeries, and conspiracy theories not only defy what is reasonable, but extend to the point of ridicule.

It is an endless source of amusement to me to come here to a forum where atheists constantly harp about their prowess of reason and logic, and apply it to theists in an effort to discredit them by demonstrating how their superstitious beliefs are not founded on reason or logic, or any evidence of their God.

Yet when it comes to this argument regarding the historicity of Jesus, these very same atheists behave identically to a theist by attempting to defend their mythicist position of belief when it too is not founded on reason or logic, or any evidence thereof.

It astounds me, but mostly ... it amuses the fuck out of me.

Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GoingUp's post
19-07-2016, 01:56 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 01:37 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  I am a seasonal instructor. I have a Masters. The reason they call it a "Masters" is because I am a master of the subject, which is an expert. It's what is required here where I work.

In what subject specifically?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-07-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 08:26 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 05:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "while the original teachings of Jesus died with James."

Mmmmmmmmm.

So....um...you admit, then, that today's Christianity is built upon a massive fraud? Ie Paul's nonsense? Interesting. I agree.

I do not admit to subscribing to your extremist views, if that is what you are hoping to see.

It's built on more than Paul's concept of Jesus. Although we refer to them as the Synoptics, the reality is that Luke is very different from Mark and Matthew. Where Mark and Matthew focus on Jesus, Luke extends into Acts, and what it actually does is give us a history of the superstitious beliefs of the Church, as opposed to focusing so much on Jesus.

Quote:What I don't agree with is that "Jesus" had any "original" teachings. If he even ever existed, he was a Jew. Judaism hasn't "died." It's been modified, for sure, but the basic tenets are still around.

He didn't. He was just a very good teacher from the Nazarene school of thought, one who commanded attention via the authority demonstrated through his knowledge.

I do not admit to subscribing to your extremist views, if that is what you are hoping to see. N

I've no idea what you mean, and neither do the readers. Another ad hominem. Please be specific, and try to stick to the topic.

"Although we refer to them as the Synoptics, the reality is that Luke is very different from Mark and Matthew. Where Mark and Matthew focus on Jesus, Luke extends into Acts, and what it actually does is give us a history of the superstitious beliefs of the Church, as opposed to focusing so much on Jesus."

Um...thanks for this. Sadcryface However you are not addressing my point. If the original teachings of Jesus died with James, which is what you claimed, then the "teachings" of Christianity, as we know it today, are fraudulent, as most claim to be based on a "Jesus." The "Jesus" we think we know is a comic book man. Your comments please.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-07-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 01:37 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 08:31 AM)ohio_drg Wrote:  What formal education do you have? Besides if you have been in academic circles long enough you would know merely getting an education on a topic is not enough to become an expert.

I am a seasonal instructor. I have a Masters. The reason they call it a "Masters" is because I am a master of the subject, which is an expert. It's what is required here where I work.

Can I be wrong? Of course I can! But history is not always a matter of what is right or wrong, but rather is all comes down to the most probable explanation of the evidence.

Despite the fact that I can accept historically that somebody named Jesus Christ is the most probable explanation for the evidence, it by no means eliminates all other possibilities. It only means that historicity is the front runner in the debate, mind you, by a long shot.

The problem with Mythicism is that the proponents of it have no evidence, and no reasonable arguments to explain the evidence we have. Their constant claims of massive interpolations, forgeries, and conspiracy theories not only defy what is reasonable, but extend to the point of ridicule.

It is an endless source of amusement to me to come here to a forum where atheists constantly harp about their prowess of reason and logic, and apply it to theists in an effort to discredit them by demonstrating how their superstitious beliefs are not founded on reason or logic, or any evidence of their God.

Yet when it comes to this argument regarding the historicity of Jesus, these very same atheists behave identically to a theist by attempting to defend their mythicist position of belief when it too is not founded on reason or logic, or any evidence thereof.

It astounds me, but mostly ... it amuses the fuck out of me.

Big Grin

You typed all of that and failed to mention your field of expertise. I am no mythicist, however; IMHO the position you are arguing from doesn't have any slam dunk evidence supporting it either.

As far as I am concerned this whole debate is a push. And frankly the existence or non-existence of Nazareth does not help to prove if there was a Jesus as described in the babble or not. The fact that the evidence presented so far for such a place is so incredibly thin tells me it most likely did not exist when claimed. In all my reading I have yet to see anyone present anything that did not take massive leaps or ignore other evidence to reach the claims they did.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ohio_drg's post
19-07-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 08:11 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  Irrelevant.

There is enough information to determine the great probability that he was speaking of Jesus Christ, whom the Christians were named after, and whom was crucified by Pilate.

You brought Tacitus into this. Now he's irrelevant?

I've read Tacitus several times. There is not enough evidence to prove the existence of Jesus. And Tacitus wrote in his later life and was born in AD 59!

There is also no shred of evidence to help support the persecution under Nero. None. You fail to understand how small the sect was at this time in history.

You are suffering Confirmation bias.

confirmation bias
noun
noun: confirmation bias
the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Banjo's post
19-07-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 03:55 PM)Banjo Wrote:  You brought Tacitus into this. Now he's irrelevant?

I've read Tacitus several times. There is not enough evidence to prove the existence of Jesus. And Tacitus wrote in his later life and was born in AD 59!

There's more than enough evidence to render the position that Jesus existed as far more likely than any alternative in which he didn't. It's why the idiots here don't even bother attempting to argue for such alternatives, because the absurdities begin to rear their head rather quickly.

In fact the the very idea of evidence when it comes to ancient historical matters becomes an ever moving target for the folks here, who just continually contradict themselves, and find themselves on the side of sloppy reasoning.

An archaeological site with an excavated farm, a variety of graves, pottery, coinage, dating back to the first century for such folks is not "proof" that an area was inhabited at that period, that's the sort of "thinking" that being passed off here as the epitome of critical thinking, but in reality is the sort of thinking that should lead you to slap yourself.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-07-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 06:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  An archaeological site with an excavated farm, a variety of graves, pottery, coinage, dating back to the first century for such folks is not "proof" that an area was inhabited at that period, that's the sort of "thinking" that being passed off here as the epitome of critical thinking, but in reality is the sort of thinking that should lead you to slap yourself.

If you are referring to this exchange:

(19-07-2016 11:56 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 11:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yes, I know if we sent you out on an archaeological dig, and you uncovered a site with an excavated farm house, numerous graves, pottery, coinage, spread around all dating to the 1st century, you apparently would conclude that it was region occupied by a single farm house, and the occupants of the farm house only.

I would conclude that there was a farm and a graveyard there. Again, I have seen numerous farms and graveyards out in the country during my bike rides, sometimes next to each other. In no case have I ever thought of any of these as a "town". In order to conclude that there was a town somewhere, I would need actual evidence of a town. A farm and a graveyard are not such evidence.

The dispute was over what constituted a town and not whether or not the area was inhabited.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
19-07-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 01:56 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 01:37 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  I am a seasonal instructor. I have a Masters. The reason they call it a "Masters" is because I am a master of the subject, which is an expert. It's what is required here where I work.

In what subject specifically?

Bumping this up in case you missed it.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-07-2016, 06:47 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 06:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's more than enough evidence to render the position that Jesus existed as far more likely than any alternative in which he didn't.

Show me.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Banjo's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: