Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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20-07-2016, 07:32 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-07-2016 06:01 AM)natachan Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 07:42 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  You don't understand Tacitus at all. You need to read his works and study him to know the man, and when you know him, you will know he didn't give a damn about Christ or the Christians, because he was writing proud Roman history regarding how this so-called Messiah was destroyed by the mighty Romans.

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate is proud Roman history.

And I don't see this as evidence the person Jesus actually existed.

There's a difference between "actual" and "probable."

It is evidence that a historical person regarded as Jesus Christ "probably" existed. The probability is increased because of how we can cross reference what is in Tacitus with other sources regarding this same individual.

Quote: As you say, Tacitus would not have cared. He was writing propaganda. And whether or not it actually happened these Christians believe it did. So he would have recorded it as part of his history.

He is not recording anything about the Christian beliefs. In typical Tacitian prose, he relating Roman history and stating as factual that Roman Governor Pontius Pilate crucified Christ in Judea during the reign of Caesar Tiberius. All through this section- which details the history of the fires of Rome in relation to Nero- Tacitus consistently names his sources, and all are Roman.
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20-07-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 07:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 06:34 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The dispute was over what constituted a town and not whether or not the area was inhabited.

No, there's no debate as to what constitutes as a town, in the first century greek. An inhabited region of a few hundred people would cut it. The scale of Nazareth is entirely irrelevant, and in the Gospels themselves is rendered as a insignificant region at the time.

But we could ignore the semantic here all together, an inhabited region at time called Nazareth, is all we need.

A few hundred people? That must have been a big-ass farm.
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20-07-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
There are also Roman writers who write of Romulus and Remus as factual people, although we know they are not. There are instances of historians exaggerating events. it happens. As such by itself I don't find this credible as a source for the historicity of Jesus.

Now if you want to know what I DO find compelling, that's another issue.
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20-07-2016, 08:04 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(19-07-2016 06:58 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 06:47 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Show me.

The variety of NT writings, the first hand account of individuals meeting his brother and disciples, the references in Josephus, including the death of his brother, the reference in Tacitus, etc.... all which would render explanations involving a non-historical Jesus as absurdities.

What brother? Christians -- never mind atheists, I'm talking about Christians here -- can't even agree on whether or not Jesus had any brothers. The Roman Catholic church taught me in no uncertain terms that he did not. Why do you keep ignoring this point?
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20-07-2016, 08:12 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-07-2016 08:04 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Why do you keep ignoring this point?

Desperation

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-07-2016, 08:15 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-07-2016 08:01 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 07:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, there's no debate as to what constitutes as a town, in the first century greek. An inhabited region of a few hundred people would cut it. The scale of Nazareth is entirely irrelevant, and in the Gospels themselves is rendered as a insignificant region at the time.

But we could ignore the semantic here all together, an inhabited region at time called Nazareth, is all we need.

A few hundred people? That must have been a big-ass farm.


Following this line of reasoning, next time we find a few fossils for an extinct species several thousand years old, we should assume only the few fossilized creatures existed at the time.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-07-2016, 08:29 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-07-2016 08:04 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 06:58 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The variety of NT writings, the first hand account of individuals meeting his brother and disciples, the references in Josephus, including the death of his brother, the reference in Tacitus, etc.... all which would render explanations involving a non-historical Jesus as absurdities.

What brother? Christians -- never mind atheists, I'm talking about Christians here -- can't even agree on whether or not Jesus had any brothers. The Roman Catholic church taught me in no uncertain terms that he did not. Why do you keep ignoring this point?


Yes, catholics in their desire to preserve the perpetual virginity of Mary, still hold to James being the brother of Jesus, just a step-brother, rather than biological one. A child of Joseph from a previous marriage or something.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-07-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-07-2016 08:03 AM)natachan Wrote:  There are also Roman writers who write of Romulus and Remus as factual people, although we know they are not. There are instances of historians exaggerating events. it happens. As such by itself I don't find this credible as a source for the historicity of Jesus.

Now if you want to know what I DO find compelling, that's another issue.

Your opinion of what is credible is irrelevant as opposed to the opinions of virtually all experts in the field, including mine. The reason is that there is absolutely no reason to doubt the credibility of this source in Tacitus.

You must demonstrate a reason as to why you do not find it credible, and the only way you can do that is by providing an argument supported by evidence in an effort to diminish the importance of this text.

But be forewarned, many have tried over the years, and all have gotten egg on their face. So be careful what you try to present as being reasonable, and be certain any evidence you bring forth is actually evidence.

I have yet to see any argument against it whatsoever that doesn't employ a massive amount of special pleading insomuch as to make the argument against look like a joke, and then dismissed upon that alone.
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20-07-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-07-2016 08:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-07-2016 08:01 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  A few hundred people? That must have been a big-ass farm.


Following this line of reasoning, next time we find a few fossils for an extinct species several thousand years old, we should assume only the few fossilized creatures existed at the time.


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Fossils require very special conditions, and as a result, the vast majority of dead organisms do not get fossilized. However, in fossil beds where the conditions were right, paleontologists find thousands upon thousands of fossils.

Likewise with towns and buildings. Towns have buildings -- multiple buildings -- and if conditions are such that buildings would be preserved, you would expect to find more than one. If conditions were not right, the farm wouldn't be there either. If the farm was preserved and was part of a town, other buildings should have been found. They were not.

What part of "a farm is not a town" do you not understand?
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20-07-2016, 08:51 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-07-2016 08:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-07-2016 08:04 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  What brother? Christians -- never mind atheists, I'm talking about Christians here -- can't even agree on whether or not Jesus had any brothers. The Roman Catholic church taught me in no uncertain terms that he did not. Why do you keep ignoring this point?


Yes, catholics in their desire to preserve the perpetual virginity of Mary, still hold to James being the brother of Jesus, just a step-brother, rather than biological one. A child of Joseph from a previous marriage or something.


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...or not a brother in the modern sense at all. There is at least one passage in the Gospels that refers to "brothers" (plural) of Jesus. Christian apologists (especially Catholics) like to pass this off by claiming that "brother" was a generic term that could refer to any kind of relative (uncles, cousins, etc.) or just to general acquaintances who may not be blood relatives at all. Maybe, maybe not, but if Jesus had a biological brother at all, he had more than one. That makes him (and his mother) a little less special than his fanboys like to pretend.
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