Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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22-07-2016, 09:12 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You don't know when the gospels were invented, or edited, or rewritten.
70 CE doesn't cut it. We're asking if there is evidence to support a claim that Jesus was from there, EARLY 1st Century.

SO someone edited all four Gospels, after the dates in which they were originally penned, to indicate that Jesus was born in Nazareth?

You have any evidence that this portion of the writing was edited later, such as copies of these text, that show different versions of the particular passages?

And what exactly would be the motivation here to edit Nazareth into the text?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-07-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
From Wikipedia:

Quote:In 1620 the Catholic Church purchased an area in the Nazareth basin measuring approximately 100 m × 150 m (328.08 ft × 492.13 ft) on the side of the hill known as the Nebi Sa'in. The Franciscan priest Bellarmino Bagatti, "Director of Christian Archaeology", carried out extensive excavation of this "Venerated Area" from 1955 to 1965. Fr. Bagatti uncovered pottery dating from the Middle Bronze Age (2200 to 1500 BC) and ceramics, silos and grinding mills from the Iron Age (1500 to 586 BC) which indicated substantial settlement in the Nazareth basin at that time. However, lack of archaeological evidence for Nazareth from Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic or Early Roman times, at least in the major excavations between 1955 and 1990, shows that the settlement apparently came to an abrupt end about 720 BC, when the Assyrians destroyed many towns in the area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth

Wikipedia is not always trustworthy, but this seems to be a balanced article. It also talks about the Alexandre excavations that Tomasia has referenced, and does not take any strong position as to whether or not the town existed during the lifetime of Jesus.
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22-07-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 09:04 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I have no idea whether or not it existed "during the time of Jesus", and I am done with that argument. I was just pointing out that many scholars believe it did indeed "disappear" before that time. Who knows when it reappeared? To quote Isaac Newton, "Hypotheses non fingo."

You said "many" scholars, how many?

How many actual archaeologist believe that Nazareth didn't exist during the time of Jesus?

I have no idea, and I never made such a claim. You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said many scholars believe that it was destroyed by the Assyrians circa 700 BC. That says nothing one way or the other about whether it existed during the lifetime of Jesus. I make no claims about that, and don't know what archaeologists think about it. Please stick to what I actually said. I don't care about your strawmen.
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22-07-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:17 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Wikipedia is not always trustworthy, but this seems to be a balanced article. It also talks about the Alexandre excavations that Tomasia has referenced, and does not take any strong position as to whether or not the town existed during the lifetime of Jesus.

Alexandre, does, as quoted previously.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-07-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  SO someone edited all four Gospels, after the dates in which they were originally penned, to indicate that Jesus was born in Nazareth?

It is a FACT that the gospels were edited.

(22-07-2016 09:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You have any evidence that this portion of the writing was edited later, such as copies of these text, that show different versions of the particular passages?

You need to read Erhman. No attempts were made to make the various versions agree until the era of the printing press. None of the early manuscripts are exactly the same. Most of the variations are minor, but some are important.

(22-07-2016 09:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And what exactly would be the motivation here to edit Nazareth into the text?

The gospels were edited to make them fit prophecies, for theological and political purposes. And just because scribes fucked up.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-07-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:21 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I have no idea, and I never made such a claim. You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said many scholars believe that it was destroyed by the Assyrians circa 700 BC. That says nothing one way or the other about whether it existed during the lifetime of Jesus. I make no claims about that, and don't know what archaeologists think about it. Please stick to what I actually said. I don't care about your strawmen.

I do know what archaeologist think about it, a number of them are even quoted in your wikipedia article. And I know exactly what the Israeli archaeologist, Alexandre, who conducted a recent dig thought about it, and has been quoted by me previously.

We have citations regarding it in all four of Gospels placing Nazareth's existence at the time of Jesus, we have a Jewish inscription from synagogue that indicate it's existence during the time of the Bar Kocheba Revolt, we have pottery and coinage, etc.. that all date to the first century found in that area, a farm, a dwelling place, graves, in the same area in that period. Even though most of the area hasn't been excavated, because people still live there, there's more than enough support to indicate that it did exists at the time of Jesus, as the writers of all four of the Gospels indicate.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-07-2016, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 09:54 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:24 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The gospels were edited to make them fit prophecies, for theological and political purposes. And just because scribes fucked up.

So the gospels were edited to fit the supposed early prophecies that the messiah would be from a place that didn't exist at the time called Nazareth? Let's see you put your critical thinking cap to good use here.

Quote:You need to read Erhman. No attempts were made to make the various versions agree until the era of the printing press. None of the early manuscripts are exactly the same. Most of the variations are minor, but some are important.

Yet no variations exist regarding the the verses indicating Jesus was from Nazareth, in all four gospel accounts. No support whatsoever that these portions were later edits to the text.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-07-2016, 10:07 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So the gospels were edited to fit the prophecies that the messiah would be from a place that didn't exist at the time called Nazareth?

The Narareth angle is trivial. The gospels were not historical texts, they were sales pitches. The OT passages regarding a messiah were revised to fit jesus.

The NT texts, including the gospels, were revised as time went on and discrepancies were noticed or in accordance with politics and theological needs.

This is according to biblical scholars, including Erhman, and has been known for hundreds of years.

(22-07-2016 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yet no variations exist regarding the the verses indicating Jesus was from Nazareth, in all four gospel accounts. No support whatsoever that these portions were later edits to the text.

Yay. One of the few places they don't contradict each other.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-07-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 09:21 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I have no idea, and I never made such a claim. You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said many scholars believe that it was destroyed by the Assyrians circa 700 BC. That says nothing one way or the other about whether it existed during the lifetime of Jesus. I make no claims about that, and don't know what archaeologists think about it. Please stick to what I actually said. I don't care about your strawmen.

I do know what archaeologist think about it, a number of them are even quoted in your wikipedia article. And I know exactly what the Israeli archaeologist, Alexandre, who conducted a recent dig thought about it, and has been quoted by me previously.

We have citations regarding it in all four of Gospels placing Nazareth's existence at the time of Jesus, we have a Jewish inscription from synagogue that indicate it's existence during the time of the Bar Kocheba Revolt, we have pottery and coinage, etc.. that all date to the first century found in that area, a farm, a dwelling place, graves, in the same area in that period. Even though most of the area hasn't been excavated, because people still live there, there's more than enough support to indicate that it did exists at the time of Jesus, as the writers of all four of the Gospels indicate.

Whatever. You're preaching to someone who doesn't care. I was only making an observation re your inability to believe that the town didn't exist continuously. It didn't.
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22-07-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 10:07 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The OT passages regarding a messiah were revised to fit jesus.

I read something interesting the other day on the Suscipe Domine site. Somebody there was claiming that the Septuagint is the only reliable OT text. His claim is that the later Masoretic text (the one used by Jews) was edited to remove prophecies about Jesus. Of course, the Jews claim exactly the opposite about Christian texts of the OT (perhaps including the Septuagint). I tend to believe the Jews. Their claims make a lot more sense (especially since there is no evidence anywhere that "prophecies" are worth a steaming pile of excrement).
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