Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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23-06-2016, 07:52 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-06-2016 06:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 06:45 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Your dishonesty is quite blatant. It was clear what I was referring to as a first hand-account, I explicitly stated in the post what I was referring to. Not to mention my response was to sitarsky in regards to Paul's encounter with the disciples and James.

This was clearly understood by Grasshopper, and has been pointed out to you multiple times already within this thread, and yet you continue on with it. You accuse me of not being clear, can't even take accountability for the bullshit accusations you've peddled regarding this in several post already.

So yes, the wiggle room in which you were just carelessly mistaken has evaporated, and you dishonesty has become front and center, as well as you lack of accountability. I hope these aren't the sort of values you instill in your son.


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You're quite pathetic in your deflections. I see you didn't answer any of my questions nor have you actually shown any of my lies. What you have shown is a singular error on my part where I asked a question for clarification that instead of answering, you claimed was a lie. Pretty fucking pathetic Drinking Beverage

What else you got? Answers to my questions? Consider Go on, I dare you to actually engage with the substance of what's being discussed here? Evil_monster


(And if you come across any actual lies from me, "the liar," then you should actually post them. Your blatant attempts at deflecting valid criticisms of your bullshit by projecting them onto others, is intellectually dishonest to the point that you are now bordering on lying. And I'd cal you a liar in this specific case, except I think you might actually be ignorant enough to not know what a lie or a liar is. Better look those up Thumbsup )


You seem to be entirely absent of any sense of self-awareness.

After quoting a post in which I explicitly referred to Paul writing of his encounter with James and the disciples as a firsthand account.

You then responded with a post in which you implied that I was referring to the Gospels as first hand accounts, of course you added a question mark at the end of this.

You didn't stop there, you then wrote several subsequent post accusing me of making such a claim. When you finally got around to acknowledging it, rather than take accountability, you blamed me for not being clear enough.

This is not a one time occurrence with you, it's become your shtick, that I can't dismiss as just a careless mistake on your part. You've routinely done this, in fact others like Grasshopper have called you out on this before, to no avail. Perhaps you have a selective memory and don't recall the numerous times you've been accused of doing this.

So no it's not a careless mistake on your part, it's a product of your dishonesty and lack of self-awareness.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-06-2016, 08:06 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-06-2016 07:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 06:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're quite pathetic in your deflections. I see you didn't answer any of my questions nor have you actually shown any of my lies. What you have shown is a singular error on my part where I asked a question for clarification that instead of answering, you claimed was a lie. Pretty fucking pathetic Drinking Beverage

What else you got? Answers to my questions? Consider Go on, I dare you to actually engage with the substance of what's being discussed here? Evil_monster


(And if you come across any actual lies from me, "the liar," then you should actually post them. Your blatant attempts at deflecting valid criticisms of your bullshit by projecting them onto others, is intellectually dishonest to the point that you are now bordering on lying. And I'd cal you a liar in this specific case, except I think you might actually be ignorant enough to not know what a lie or a liar is. Better look those up Thumbsup )


You seem to be entirely absent of any sense of self-awareness.

After quoting a post in which I explicitly referred to Paul writing of his encounter with James and the disciples as a firsthand account.

You then responded with a post in which you implied that I was referring to the Gospels as first hand accounts, of course you added a question mark at the end of this.

You didn't stop there, you then wrote several subsequent post accusing me of making such a claim. When you finally got around to acknowledging it, rather than take accountability, you blamed me for not being clear enough.

This is not a one time occurrence with you, it's become your shtick, that I can't dismiss as just a careless mistake on your part. You've routinely done this, in fact others like Grasshopper have called you out on this before, to no avail. Perhaps you have a selective memory and don't recall the numerous times you've been accused of doing this.

So no it's not a careless mistake on your part, it's a product of your dishonesty and lack of self-awareness.





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More deflection and obfuscation. Grasshopper chimed in on this exchange and (like you) mistook a question (question marks have meaning) as a statement. You deflect and project.

Name the other times that grasshopper has "called me on this before"?

Ever going to actually address questions to you about your bullsht presented to you? I assume the answer is "no" and you'll simply keep projecting your failings onto me because it's your schtick. Laugh out load

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23-06-2016, 08:12 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If he was lying about ever meeting them, then I guess he was also lying about his disputes with them regarding the Gentiles and the Jewish ritual laws? I would think if he was lying about all this to bolster his credibility, he would have had them agreeing with him, rather than having a contentious dispute with them regarding this.

The disputes over whether one had to convert to Judaism or not illustrate the chaotic nature of the church in the early days. There literally was no doctrine. There was no theology. Orthodoxy, the church theology, everything grew and evolved over time. Just what you would expect from a human-created institution. It starts out simple, then grows as more people become involved. Complexity grows as ideas, culture and individuals become better educated and more sophisticated.

As opposed as to a god setting things down from the start.

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Here's the other question, if Paul was lying about meeting his disciples and brother, it goes without saying that this would mean he knew of Jesus having disciples with those particular names, and a brother named James. Or maybe you think he invented a brother and disciples himself, and then claimed to meet them?

Well, he invented or hallucinated an apparition on the Damascus road, didn't he?

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Once again where are the historical accounts of Jesus outside of the Bible, outside of scripture and the gospels?

You have Josephus writing of his brother's death,

Link?

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Tacitus mentioning his death at the hands of Pilate, and

Link?

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  variety of NT writings from multiple writers,

Using the bible to prove the bible. Don't need a link for that.

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  as well as four Greco-Roman biographies of his life, that relied on multiple earlier sources themselves.

Link?

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you think it's pretty easy to believe in the mother of all conspiracy theories, in the Jesus that didn't exist, and no one was the wiser until some resourceful atheists on the internet figured it out.

What conspiracy theory? That eventually, people became sophisticated enough to realize the possibility? That the church's stranglehold on society and free thought loosened enough do that difficult questions could be asked?

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  That not only did the early Christians tried to sell a failed messiah claimant, who died a humiliating death at the hands of the Romans, as the Jewish Messiah,but one that didn't exist at all. Then I have a tinfoil hat with your name on it.

Let me guess: Your head has swelled up so much that your old one doesn't fit?

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yes, they should have pulled their smartphones out and took pictures, and jotted it down on their notepads, because in an oral culture, that's what the primary means of communication was right, writing shit down.

They were not concerned with writing things down because they did not see the need. The message preached initially was a "The-end-is-nigh" apocalypse message. When decades passed and the end was not nigh, (shocker...) they thought "Oh shit, better start keeping track." This led to at least one of the forged letters of Paul, the one about not knowing the day or hour.

(23-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps for the sake of avoiding the criticism of individuals 2000 years after their time.

You would think that an Omni-god would have known about that, wouldn't you?

I'm not even talking about waiting 2000 years, or even 1400 for the printing press.

At the start of his ministry, when he was gathering followers, why didn't Christ look at one or two of them and say "You, start writing this shit down. Take notes." Seems like something a "god" would have thought of...

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23-06-2016, 08:18 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 02:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  So? It is the veracity of the writings that is in question. There are many reasons not to just accept them, primarily lack of corroboration and also distance in time from alleged events.

Except a variety of details are corroborated. The James/Jesus relationship is indicated by the writer of Matthew, the writer of Mark, Paul who writes a first hand account of meeting him, in fact by Josephus himself in writing of James death.

And the Gospels didn't magically appear out of thin air, but built on a variety of earlier sources, both written and oral.

You're problem is not corroboration, but the whose corroborating it. It's more a product of your extreme skepticism than historicity itself.

More a product of the disease that impairs you from believing anything on topics even faintly related to religion, than of drawing conclusions. More a psychological issue than a rational dilemma.

What you see on display in such discussions is not the astute minds of rationalist, but the erosion anti-religious tendencies have taken on your mind.













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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-06-2016, 08:20 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2016 08:25 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-06-2016 07:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 06:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're quite pathetic in your deflections. I see you didn't answer any of my questions nor have you actually shown any of my lies. What you have shown is a singular error on my part where I asked a question for clarification that instead of answering, you claimed was a lie. Pretty fucking pathetic Drinking Beverage

What else you got? Answers to my questions? Consider Go on, I dare you to actually engage with the substance of what's being discussed here? Evil_monster


(And if you come across any actual lies from me, "the liar," then you should actually post them. Your blatant attempts at deflecting valid criticisms of your bullshit by projecting them onto others, is intellectually dishonest to the point that you are now bordering on lying. And I'd cal you a liar in this specific case, except I think you might actually be ignorant enough to not know what a lie or a liar is. Better look those up Thumbsup )


You seem to be entirely absent of any sense of self-awareness.

After quoting a post in which I explicitly referred to Paul writing of his encounter with James and the disciples as a firsthand account.

You then responded with a post in which you implied that I was referring to the Gospels as first hand accounts, of course you added a question mark at the end of this.

You didn't stop there, you then wrote several subsequent post accusing me of making such a claim. When you finally got around to acknowledging it, rather than take accountability, you blamed me for not being clear enough.

This is not a one time occurrence with you, it's become your shtick, that I can't dismiss as just a careless mistake on your part. You've routinely done this, in fact others like Grasshopper have called you out on this before, to no avail. Perhaps you have a selective memory and don't recall the numerous times you've been accused of doing this.

So no it's not a careless mistake on your part, it's a product of your dishonesty and lack of self-awareness.

What it is, is an ignorance of the New Testament, on your part.

1. Receiving anything from the apostles is SECOND HAND, and
2. Paul specifically REFUTED that himself.

Galatians 1:12
"I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."


You have no evidence Jesus existed. You have no sources. You worship a figment.
Not only have you disqualified yourself (by admitting your presupositionalist stance) from this discussion, you are totally unaware of the issues involved, and are not even, in small part, conversant with the arguments.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-06-2016, 08:23 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
I still want to know how Paul or Josephus or anyone else could write about Jesus's brother when Jesus didn't have any brothers (unless the Catholic Church is wrong, and how could that be?).
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23-06-2016, 08:23 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-06-2016 07:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  [quote='Bucky Ball' pid='1018701' dateline='1466687102']

I already said I made a mistake.

Quote:You did, Goodwithoutgod didn't, and repeated the same nonsense here again. And it was my post calling him out on this, that you earlier replied to.

So what. It's STILL evasion. You can't address the POINTS here. All you can do is attempt more evasion. You are unable to tell us what the unbiased sources are, and discuss Carrier's and Price's points, as you are totally IGNORANT of the period and the issues and the culture.

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23-06-2016, 08:26 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-06-2016 08:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 07:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You seem to be entirely absent of any sense of self-awareness.

After quoting a post in which I explicitly referred to Paul writing of his encounter with James and the disciples as a firsthand account.

You then responded with a post in which you implied that I was referring to the Gospels as first hand accounts, of course you added a question mark at the end of this.

You didn't stop there, you then wrote several subsequent post accusing me of making such a claim. When you finally got around to acknowledging it, rather than take accountability, you blamed me for not being clear enough.

This is not a one time occurrence with you, it's become your shtick, that I can't dismiss as just a careless mistake on your part. You've routinely done this, in fact others like Grasshopper have called you out on this before, to no avail. Perhaps you have a selective memory and don't recall the numerous times you've been accused of doing this.

So no it's not a careless mistake on your part, it's a product of your dishonesty and lack of self-awareness.





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More deflection and obfuscation. Grasshopper chimed in on this exchange and (like you) mistook a question (question marks have meaning) as a statement. You deflect and project.

Name the other times that grasshopper has "called me on this before"?

Ever going to actually address questions to you about your bullsht presented to you? I assume the answer is "no" and you'll simply keep projecting your failings onto me because it's your schtick. Laugh out load

Ahem -- I don't recall ever "calling out" TheBeardedDude before, and I don't really think of it that way this time. I just pointed out an error. And the question mark really doesn't change anything. With or without a question mark, it was implied that Tomasia had called the Gospels first-hand accounts, and he did no such thing.

Both sides play fair now, y'hear?
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23-06-2016, 08:30 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-06-2016 08:26 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 08:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  More deflection and obfuscation. Grasshopper chimed in on this exchange and (like you) mistook a question (question marks have meaning) as a statement. You deflect and project.

Name the other times that grasshopper has "called me on this before"?

Ever going to actually address questions to you about your bullsht presented to you? I assume the answer is "no" and you'll simply keep projecting your failings onto me because it's your schtick. Laugh out load

Ahem -- I don't recall ever "calling out" TheBeardedDude before, and I don't really think of it that way this time. I just pointed out an error. And the question mark really doesn't change anything. With or without a question mark, it was implied that Tomasia had called the Gospels first-hand accounts, and he did no such thing.

Both sides play fair now, y'hear?

Almost. That question mark is because I genuinely did not understand what point Tomato thought he was making and asked an actual question for clarification (which he never gave and instead labeled my question as a "lie")

But yes, I didn't recall being called out by you before and I don't recall anyone other than tomato accusing me of lying. Consider

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23-06-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
I'm thinkin' we should all leave town, and leave this Jebus Clown alone with his delusions. He can tell himself how he ran us all out. Facepalm

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