Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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22-07-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 07:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've just spent half an hour or so trying to find out if Justin Martyr (100 to 165,) a key Christian apologist, many of whose writings survive, mentions Nazareth. I don't think he does. He mentions Bethlehem, but not Nazareth. If anyone else can find Justin mentioning Nazareth I would be interested.

If "Nazareth" existed in the gospels in the mid second century, Justin Martyr almost certainly would have mentioned it. He doesn't (as best I can tell.)

Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho

CHAPTER LXXVIII --

"Then he was afraid, and did not put her away; but on the occasion of the first census which was taken in Jud a, under Cyrenius, he went up from Nazareth, where he lived, to Bethlehem, to which he belonged, to be enrolled; for his family was of the tribe of Judah"

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...rypho.html
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22-07-2016, 07:41 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 07:46 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
I have found some references from Tertullian (ca. 150-225) that mention Nazareth (from the gospels,) so, given that Justin Martyr (d c.160 ) probably did not know of a Nazareth, it looks as though Nazareth may have appeared in the gospels perhaps in the late second or early third centuries.

I have not done enough research to satisfy myself that this is definitely the case though.

Anyone else?

PS I was wrong...Justin Martyr does mention Nazareth.
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22-07-2016, 07:45 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 08:05 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 07:27 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 07:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've just spent half an hour or so trying to find out if Justin Martyr (100 to 165,) a key Christian apologist, many of whose writings survive, mentions Nazareth. I don't think he does. He mentions Bethlehem, but not Nazareth. If anyone else can find Justin mentioning Nazareth I would be interested.

If "Nazareth" existed in the gospels in the mid second century, Justin Martyr almost certainly would have mentioned it. He doesn't (as best I can tell.)

Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho

CHAPTER LXXVIII --

"Then he was afraid, and did not put her away; but on the occasion of the first census which was taken in Jud a, under Cyrenius, he went up from Nazareth, where he lived, to Bethlehem, to which he belonged, to be enrolled; for his family was of the tribe of Judah"

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...rypho.html

Oh! Well done! So..."Nazareth" the name of a place in something that Justin read, (please note there was no Matthew, Mark, Luke or John in Justin's day,) existed prior to c 160.

Can anyone find an earlier mention? ( please...not the gospels). We know that Marcion's (approx 140 CE) collection of writings has no mention of Nazareth, although this may have been a deliberate omission on his part.
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22-07-2016, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 10:26 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Pause and think.

We know from the writings of Justin Martyr, who died in about 160 CE , that a place, "Nazareth" was being discussed in some of the early Christian groups in Rome.

Does it not tell us something that we have absolutely no evidence that any devoted Christian ever went to Nazareth, the place, for at least the next one hundred and 40 odd years?

Surely if your god man hero, Lord and Saviour, had lived in a nearby locale, or even a not so nearby locale, you would go visit the goddamn place, and write about it? Origen never went there. Irenaeus never went there. Tertullian never went there. As far as I know, Eusebius, Ambrose, Jerome and Augustine never went there either. Surely some wondering traveller would notice the place and write about it somewhere? No. You can't go to a place that doesn't exist. As far as I know no one ever went "there," until maybe, perhaps, Constantine's mother in the early fourth century. I doubt she found anything. Maybe a farmhouse. Or some old bones. Big Grin

Come to think of it, no fan of Batman has ever been to Gotham city either.

There is a reason for that. Gotham city is part of a work of fiction, just like Nazareth the city/town/hamlet was part of a work of fiction. Smartass
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22-07-2016, 08:51 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 09:04 PM by GoingUp.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 07:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  please note there was no Matthew, Mark, Luke or John in Justin's day,) existed prior to c 160.

From: ST. JUSTIN MARTYR - DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO

CHAPTER C -- IN WHAT SENSE CHRIST IS [CALLED] JACOB, AND ISRAEL, AND SON OF MAN.

Quote:'All things are delivered unto me by My Father;' and, 'No man knoweth the Father but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son will reveal Him.'

Compare to ..

Luk_10:22 All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Quote:"The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the Pharisees and Scribes, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.'

Compare to ...

Luk_9:22 saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Everything below can be found in Luke:

Quote:"But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word."


CHAPTER CV -- THE PSALM ALSO PREDICTS THE CRUCIFIXION AND THE SUBJECT OF THE LAST PRAYERS OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

Quote:'Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit,'

Compare to ...

Luk_23:46 into Your hands I commit My spirit.


CHAPTER XXXV -- HERETICS CONFIRM THE CATHOLICS IN THE FAITH.

Quote:For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Compare to ...

Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


CHAPTER LXXVI -- FROM OTHER PASSAGES THE SAME MAJESTY AND GOVERNMENT OF CHRIST ARE PROVED.

Quote:'They shall come from the east and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:

Compare to ...

Mat_8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.

Quote:'I give unto you power to tread on serpents, and on scorpions,

Compare to ...


Luk_10:19 I give to you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions,
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22-07-2016, 09:08 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 09:34 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 08:51 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 07:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Oh! Well done! So..."Nazareth" the name of a place in something that Justin read, (please note there was no Matthew, Mark, Luke or John in Justin's day,) existed prior to c 160.

Can anyone find an earlier mention? ( please...not the gospels). We know that Marcion's (approx 140 CE) collection of writings has no mention of Nazareth, although this may have been a deliberate omission on his part.

From: ST. JUSTIN MARTYR - DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO

CHAPTER C -- IN WHAT SENSE CHRIST IS [CALLED] JACOB, AND ISRAEL, AND SON OF MAN.

Quote:'All things are delivered unto me by My Father;' and, 'No man knoweth the Father but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son will reveal Him.'

Compare to ..

Luk_10:22 All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Quote:"The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the Pharisees and Scribes, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.'

Compare to ...

Luk_9:22 saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Everything below can be found in Luke:

Quote:"But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word."


CHAPTER CV -- THE PSALM ALSO PREDICTS THE CRUCIFIXION AND THE SUBJECT OF THE LAST PRAYERS OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

Quote:'Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit,'

Compare to ...

Luk_23:46 into Your hands I commit My spirit.


CHAPTER XXXV -- HERETICS CONFIRM THE CATHOLICS IN THE FAITH.

Quote:For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Compare to ...

Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


CHAPTER LXXVI -- FROM OTHER PASSAGES THE SAME MAJESTY AND GOVERNMENT OF CHRIST ARE PROVED.

Quote:'They shall come from the east and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:

Compare to ...

Mat_8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.

Quote:'I give unto you power to tread on serpents, and on scorpions,

Compare to ...


Luk_10:19 I give to you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions,

Yes , there are some similarities between today's "Luke" and Justin Martyr's writing. Is that your point? If so, I agree. But Justin is not aware there are only four gospels, or that any of the writings about Jesus are named. Clearly the gospels as we know them today have been edited and given names.

Allow me to share some of my conclusions about Justin...

Justin Martyr (100–165 CE) was an important founding father of Catholicism, which 150 years after his time became the established version of Christianity.

Most of what is known about Justin comes from his own writings. He was from a Greek-speaking family, had property and had studied philosophy. He travelled widely in his early life, and in 140–150 CE settled in Rome as a Christian teacher, founding a school that attracted a wide following, and devoted his life to teaching what he declared was the true doctrine. A large volume of his work has survived to give us a glimpse of the daily life of some of the Christians of the time.

Unlike Marcion, Justin sought to retain the Old Testament and the importance of Israel by merging them with the tradition of a Christ. Yet Justin also pitted burgeoning Christianity against Judaism, claiming that the Jews had misunderstood their own Scripture, and that he could provide the correct interpretation. He thereby relegated the Old Testament to a secondary status; he attempted to neutralize, but not totally ignore it as a source of doctrine. Justin thought that Christ removed the need for circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Sabbath, and the laws regarding food.

Justin taught that the Greek philosophers had borrowed their teachings from the Old Testament; that Plato learned from Moses! These are claims that all scholars know to be fallacious. Justin also claimed that the ancient Greeks and Jews had only a partial understanding of true philosophy, because only Christ revealed real enlightenment.

That Justin promoted these proposals successfully is perhaps not only a testament to how unquestioning his students were, but also how willing Justin was to mislead them.
By claiming a connection with Israel’s heritage, the early Catholic Christians were in direct competition with traditional Jews, including the Nazarenes. In his "Dialogue with the Jew Trypho," Justin admitted the Nazarenes’ existence, and he acknowledged that they believed that Jesus had merely been a human prophet.

Justin did not condemn the Nazarenes outright. He granted that they were entitled to observe Mosaic Law if they wished, and he even thought the Nazarenes might achieve salvation, although he also admitted that many Christians thought the Nazarenes would be denied a place in heaven. The bigotry against outsiders (such as the Nazarenes) that later became a feature of most churches was already obvious.

Justin’s writings detail Baptism, the Eucharist, and Sunday worship.

When Christianity came under intellectual attack from secular critics such as Celsus, and no doubt numerous others, for being baseless, Justin replied by writing a chapter titled:

“The Christians Have Not Believed Groundless Stories,” but he offered no proof for this assertion, only protestations unsupported by facts.

Interestingly, Justin never mentioned the existence of any of the four canonical Gospels. If the Gospels had been written in the late first century, and distributed, and named, and in the form we have them now, as most Christians believe, surely Justin would have referred to them.

Although Justin was one of the first Catholic Church Fathers living in Rome, and wrote extensively on various topics, and a large body of his writings have survived, he did not acknowledge in any of his writings that there had ever been a Roman Prince Peter or Pope Peter. This undeniable fact proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Pope Peter is a myth.
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22-07-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 08:51 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 07:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  please note there was no Matthew, Mark, Luke or John in Justin's day,) existed prior to c 160.

From: ST. JUSTIN MARTYR - DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO

CHAPTER C -- IN WHAT SENSE CHRIST IS [CALLED] JACOB, AND ISRAEL, AND SON OF MAN.

Quote:'All things are delivered unto me by My Father;' and, 'No man knoweth the Father but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son will reveal Him.'

Compare to ..

Luk_10:22 All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Quote:"The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the Pharisees and Scribes, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.'

Compare to ...

Luk_9:22 saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Everything below can be found in Luke:

Quote:"But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word."


CHAPTER CV -- THE PSALM ALSO PREDICTS THE CRUCIFIXION AND THE SUBJECT OF THE LAST PRAYERS OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

Quote:'Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit,'

Compare to ...

Luk_23:46 into Your hands I commit My spirit.


CHAPTER XXXV -- HERETICS CONFIRM THE CATHOLICS IN THE FAITH.

Quote:For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Compare to ...

Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


CHAPTER LXXVI -- FROM OTHER PASSAGES THE SAME MAJESTY AND GOVERNMENT OF CHRIST ARE PROVED.

Quote:'They shall come from the east and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:

Compare to ...

Mat_8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.

Quote:'I give unto you power to tread on serpents, and on scorpions,

Compare to ...


Luk_10:19 I give to you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions,

I hope you realise that Irenaeus was the earliest commentator to name the four Gospels (in about 180 CE.) He was also the first to claim they were canonical. ( http://firstnewtestament.com/gospels_ear..._lyons.htm )

Where Irenaeus, or one of his contemporaries, got the four names from, no one knows.
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22-07-2016, 09:22 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Interestingly, Justin never mentioned the existence of any of the four canonical Gospels. If the Gospels had been written in the late first century, and distributed, and named, and in the form we have them now, as most Christians believe, surely Justin would have referred to them.

He quotes from at least the works of one (modern Luke), and likely two (modern Matthew) numerous times. I gave you the short list, but it is so numerous as to be no doubt.

Names were not beginning to be ascribed to the gospel authors until after Justin died when Irenaeus did it circa Ad 175:

Quote:Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.

Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.

—Against Heresies, Book 3,
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22-07-2016, 09:32 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:22 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 09:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Interestingly, Justin never mentioned the existence of any of the four canonical Gospels. If the Gospels had been written in the late first century, and distributed, and named, and in the form we have them now, as most Christians believe, surely Justin would have referred to them.

He quotes from at least the works of one (modern Luke), and likely two (modern Matthew) numerous times. I gave you the short list, but it is so numerous as to be no doubt.

Names were not beginning to be ascribed to the gospel authors until after Justin died when Irenaeus did it circa Ad 175:

Quote:Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.

Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.

—Against Heresies, Book 3,

Yes.

We are saying the same thing.
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22-07-2016, 09:36 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 09:43 PM by GoingUp.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:19 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Where Irenaeus, or one of his contemporaries, got the four names from, no one knows.

The names were obviously known before the time of Irenaeus. Whether they were accurate or not is another argument.

What we do know is that around Ad 140, Justin says this in Trypho:

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.


And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'


(note another quote from Luke there, from 20:34-36)

He names John as the author of the Book of Revelation, and not only that he seems to say that he lived at the same time as John with the words "there was a certain man with us."

If this were to be accepted at face value, it would indicate that Justin was perhaps born far earlier than we believe, and died earlier than we currently believe. Both his birth and death dates are approximates, but no one really knows.
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