Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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22-07-2016, 09:46 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 11:01 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
According to my research, none of the following key players in the written annals of Christianity mentioned a place called Nazareth. (I may be wrong about this and am happy to be corrected.)


1. St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. c.110 CE)

2. Polycarp, (70–155 CE) the Greek bishop of Smyrna, (modern Izmir, in Turkey) was the leading second century figure in Roman Asia by virtue of his intermediary position between the apostolic and patristic (referring to the Church Fathers) ages

3. Papias (70–163 CE) was bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia. (Modern central Turkey.) He was, according to Irenæus,
“... a companion of Polycarp.”
Papias did not claim to know Jesus’ disciples (as with Polycarp, it would have been extremely unlikely that any of them would still have been alive in Papias’ time.) It is claimed by Eusebius of Caesaria (c. 320 CE) that Papias talked to people who knew the authors Mark and Matthew. Papias could not have done so, as these authors’ names are only first mentioned elsewhere c.180 CE, long after Papias was dead.

4. Marcion (110–160 CE) was a key figure in Christianity’s history.

5. Valentinus (100–160 CE) was the best known and, for a time, the most successful early Christian Gnostic theologian.
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22-07-2016, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 11:00 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:36 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 09:19 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Where Irenaeus, or one of his contemporaries, got the four names from, no one knows.

The names were obviously known before the time of Irenaeus. Whether they were accurate or not is another argument.

What we do know is that around Ad 140, Justin says this in Trypho:

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.


And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'


(note another quote from Luke there, from 20:34-36)

He names John as the author of the Book of Revelation, and not only that he seems to say that he lived at the same time as John with the words "there was a certain man with us."

If this were to be accepted at face value, it would indicate that Justin was perhaps born far earlier than we believe, and died earlier than we currently believe. Both his birth and death dates are approximates, but no one really knows.


RE..
"And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ,..."

Mmmmmm. Who, exactly, are "us?" Huh

If Justin had known a John who knew Jesus we would've heard a lot, lot more about it in his writings. Justin was a character desperate to prove that Christianity had a real historical founder. He was spectacularly unsuccessful at doing that.

Imagine you are writing a biography of Adolf Hitler, and Adolf's butler survived and was talking to you. That would be hot news. You wouldn't casually mention the existence of a certain butler in one line of your book.

I smell bullshit.

Justin was pretty good at making up stuff. His whole "Conversation with Trypho" is a fabrication designed to denigrate Jewish beliefs and promote his own version of woo.
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22-07-2016, 10:33 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 10:37 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:22 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 09:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Interestingly, Justin never mentioned the existence of any of the four canonical Gospels. If the Gospels had been written in the late first century, and distributed, and named, and in the form we have them now, as most Christians believe, surely Justin would have referred to them.

He quotes from at least the works of one (modern Luke), and likely two (modern Matthew) numerous times. I gave you the short list, but it is so numerous as to be no doubt.

Names were not beginning to be ascribed to the gospel authors until after Justin died when Irenaeus did it circa Ad 175:

Quote:Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.

Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.

—Against Heresies, Book 3,

"He quotes from at least the works of one (modern Luke), and likely two (modern Matthew) numerous times."

No. He quotes from something, and that something is from where some of the writing in today's Matthew and today's Luke is derived.

If Justin knew of 4 gospels...Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, he would have written so. They are the foundations of today's spiel, but were not in circa 160.
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22-07-2016, 10:51 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2016 10:59 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
I can't help but wonder whether Constantine's mum "discovered" Nazareth. Cosider this article...

"St. Helen, Mother of Emperor Constantine, Equal of the Apostles

St. Helen was the mother of St. Constantine the Great, and was born at Drepanum (Helenopolis) in Asia Minor to parents of humble means. She married Constantius Chlorus, and their son Constantine was born in 274. Constantius divorced her in 294 in order to further his political ambitions by marrying a woman of noble rank. After he became emperor, Constantine showed his mother great honor and respect, granting her the imperial title “Augusta.”

After St. Constantine became the sole ruler of the Western Roman Empire, he issued the Edict of Milan in 313 which guaranteed religious tolerance for Christians. St. Helen, who was a Christian, may have influenced him in this decision. In 323, when he became the sole ruler of the entire Roman Empire, he extended the provisions of the Edict of Milan to the Eastern half of the Empire. After three hundred years of persecution, Christians could finally practice their faith without fear.

The emperor deeply revered the victory-bearing Sign of the Cross of the Lord, and wanted to find the actual Cross upon which our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified. He sent his mother, Helen, to Jerusalem, providing her with a letter to St. Macarius, Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Although St. Helen was already in her declining years, she set about completing the task with enthusiasm. Searching for the Life-Creating Cross, she questioned both Christians and Jews, but her search remained unsuccessful. However, in 326, she was directed to an elderly Hebrew named Jude who stated that the Cross was buried at the Temple of Venus. St. Helen ordered that the pagan temple be demolished. After praying, the ground began to be excavated. Soon, the Tomb of the Lord was uncovered. Not far from it were three crosses, a board with the inscription ordered by Pilate, and four nails which had pierced the Lord’s Body.

In order to determine the cross on which the Savior had been crucified, St. Macarius alternately touched the crosses to a corpse. When the dead man was touched by the True Cross of the Lord, the body came to life. Having beheld the raising of the dead, everyone was convinced that the Life-Creating Cross was found.

During the discovery of the Life-Creating Cross, another miracle took place – a grievously sick woman, beneath the shadow of the Holy Cross, was healed instantly. Elder Jude and other Jews came to believe in Christ and accepted Holy Baptism. Jude received the name Cyriacus and afterwards was consecrated Bishop of Jerusalem.

Christians came in huge throngs to venerate the Holy Cross, beseeching St. Macarius to elevate the Cross, so that even those far off might reverently contemplate it. The Patriarch and other spiritual leaders raised up the Holy Cross, and the people, saying “Lord have mercy,” reverently prostrated themselves before the Venerable Wood.

While in Jerusalem, St. Helen performed a variety of good works, including giving money to the poor. She also ordered that all places connected with the earthly life of the Lord and His All-Pure Mother be freed of all traces of paganism, and directed that churches be built at each of these places. St. Helen gave the Life-Creating Cross to the Patriarch for safe-keeping, and took part of the wood and nails back to Constantinople.

St. Helen continued to journey to the holy places connected with the earthly life of the Savior, building more than eighty churches – at Bethlehem at the birthplace of Christ; on the Mount of Olives where the Lord ascended to Heaven; and at Gethsemane where the Savior prayed before His sufferings and where the Mother of God was buried.

Emperor Constantine gave orders to build at Jerusalem a majestic and spacious church in honor of the Resurrection of Christ, also including under its roof the Life-Giving Tomb of the Lord and Golgotha. The temple was constructed in about ten years.

St. Helen did not survive to see the dedication of this temple. She entered into the Eternal Kingdom in 327. However, the church was consecrated on September 13, 335. On the following day, September 14, the festal celebration of the Exaltation of the Venerable and Life-Creating Cross was established."

This Helena appears to be the first Christian ever to seriously fall for the spiel about the historicity of Jeebus...well...she appears to be the first to go and check things out.
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22-07-2016, 10:55 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
This is what Rene Salm said recently about Helena...


"[22’00”] Brian: The Church of the Annunciation, which is still there I think, dates back to 570. But even a holy site didn’t exist until Constantine created Christianity. Where did the Christians themselves decide they were going to place it, and where did they get their info?

Rob: Constantine did not create Christianity. He just popularized it.

Brian: They’re creating these places. Where is that?

Rob: Right, right…

René: And actually it was his mother. Don’t forget Helena. She was really… Well, she was like a Christian three times over. We know she came down and visited Palestine. She was such a devoted Christian! And it’s right around that time that a lot of places were identified overnight. I suspect that it was she who identified the little village of Nazareth and said, “Okay, this is the place!” I don’t know what the name of that settlement was beforehand, or even if it was big enough to have a name. You know, it might have been a two-horse town. And she comes through and says: “Okay, we’re going to make this Nazareth.” "
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22-07-2016, 11:20 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
This is a fairly interesting and up to date interview with René Salm, it is only two months old...

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2016/05/1...ript-pt-1/
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23-07-2016, 02:13 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 09:36 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 09:19 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Where Irenaeus, or one of his contemporaries, got the four names from, no one knows.

The names were obviously known before the time of Irenaeus. Whether they were accurate or not is another argument.

What we do know is that around Ad 140, Justin says this in Trypho:

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.


And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'


(note another quote from Luke there, from 20:34-36)

He names John as the author of the Book of Revelation, and not only that he seems to say that he lived at the same time as John with the words "there was a certain man with us."

If this were to be accepted at face value, it would indicate that Justin was perhaps born far earlier than we believe, and died earlier than we currently believe. Both his birth and death dates are approximates, but no one really knows.


You must have studied some weird apologist history. No real historian I know speaks like you.

You offer apologists as proof?

That won't cut it here. Go join a religious site. You come across as a complete nutter.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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23-07-2016, 06:31 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 05:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 12:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I was speaking exclusively about Nazareth, and the verses regards Nazareth, I made no generalized statements regarding the Bible, or the NT as whole, so keep your strawman to yourself.

I never acted like the various books of the Bible were not altered, revised, edited, etc.. that just your projection.

The question is whether the Nazareth, as hometown of Jesus verses was later altered, revised, edited addition, to the original texts. So stop trying to move the goal post, from a specific passage, to the Bible in it's entirety.

So are you gonna argue that the Nazareth passage was likely a later addition to these text, not part of the original writings? Like Mark Fulton suggests? Or are you gonna erect more strawmen?

"So are you gonna argue that the Nazareth passage was likely a later addition to these text, not part of the original writings? Like Mark Fulton suggests?"

Excuse me! This is exactly what I wrote...

""Mark" was probably first penned in the 70's. It finished being rewritten in the fourth century. Nazareth didn't exist in the 70's."

I don't know at what point(s) in time "Nazareth" was added to the Gospels. I do know it was in John's gospel in the early 3rd century, when Origen mentions it a few times.

Once again, you have not read carefully, but just assumed, what someone else (me) thinks.


But you claims Nazareth as a place was a latter addition to the texts. In fact suggest it was added to the text to erase references to "the Nazarene".

Even though you have no support for this whatsoever, no indication in any copies of the text to suggest this was later added.

You suggest that someone/s were thorough enough to edit all four gospels to edit in Nazareth as a place, thorough enough to ensure that no copies of the these texts were ever to be found were those portions are absent, or written differently, but apparently not thorough enough to remove "the Nazarene" passages in any single Gospel, or the book of Acts at all.

That's critical thinking for you huh?


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-07-2016, 06:40 AM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2016 06:44 AM by Tomasia.)
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-07-2016 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 12:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So in 70ce the writer of Mark believed that there was a town called Nazareth, that didn't exist at the time, that somehow came into existence later?

You are really, really slow on the uptake.
1. You have no proof " Mark" was written in 70 CE
2. You have no proof "Nazareth" was in any original version of Mark
3. It has just been explained you, a few times, that the gospels are not history, they are faith documents. It was a time when facts were hard to check. It would not have mattered to the authors of Mark whether an actual place called Nazareth did or didn't exist.

You're the one who lacks any evidential support for your suggestion that it was a later addition to the texts.

The passages lack all the hallmarks of later scribal additions, no copies of the text in which those passages are written differently. In fact Nazareth as a hometown of Jesus is indicated in all four Gospel, and the same is true for all four of them.

You suggest that all four of these texts were edited to replace "the nazarene" passages. Which is false, because all four Gospels speak of Jesus as the Nazarene as well, not to mention Acts.

Your suggestion of a later addition to the texts is a ridiculous of a suggestion as it comes. The textual evidence here proves otherwise.

All the evidence points to the passages being original. There is no evidence whatsoever in support of it being a later addition.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-07-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(23-07-2016 06:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-07-2016 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You are really, really slow on the uptake.
1. You have no proof " Mark" was written in 70 CE
2. You have no proof "Nazareth" was in any original version of Mark
3. It has just been explained you, a few times, that the gospels are not history, they are faith documents. It was a time when facts were hard to check. It would not have mattered to the authors of Mark whether an actual place called Nazareth did or didn't exist.

You're the one who lacks any evidential support for your suggestion that it was a later addition to the texts.

The passages lack all the hallmarks of later scribal additions, no copies of the text in which those passages are written differently. In fact Nazareth as a hometown of Jesus is indicated in all four Gospel, and the same is true for all four of them.

You suggest that all four of these texts were edited to replace "the nazarene" passages. Which is false, because all four Gospels speak of Jesus as the Nazarene as well, not to mention Acts.

Your suggestion of a later addition to the texts is a ridiculous of a suggestion as it comes. The textual evidence here proves otherwise.

All the evidence points to the passages being original. There is no evidence whatsoever in support of it being a later addition.


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How about you go back and correct your grammar in the previous two posts so that everyone can understand you? I will reply to you then. If English is your second language, you really should get someone who can write it to correct your posts before you put them out.
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