Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 2.33 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-07-2016, 11:50 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2016 12:31 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 10:22 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(29-07-2016 09:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So...what do you think of Jesus?

Christian or Jew or something else?

Why was he crucified?

Would he have got on with Paul?

What do you think happened to the original followers of Jesus?

What do you think Christianity today is?

In my opinion ...

Jesus was a Nazarene priest from the priestly community of Nazareth. This particular sect of Judaism was not well received by the more orthodox Pharisee and Sadducee, and to the lesser extent, the Samaritans. Even the town where he came from, Nazareth, was not well regarded.

Jesus had a very unorthodox religious philosophy that, although it won him over many followers, it also created all the wrong enemies from the dominate Pharisee and Sadducee. His popularity flourished to such an extent that many of his zealous followers began to wonder if he could possibly be put into a position of being the promised Messiah who would deliver the Jews from Roman rule.

Upon learning that some of his followers considered him a Messiah, Jesus tried to defuse and confuse the situation by taking a more spiritual approach to the meaning of Messiah. He was afraid that if word got out about him being proclaimed as being a Messiah it would result in his arrest and possible execution by the chief priests, who were already looking for some excuse to trip him up because of his popularity.

Jesus never made any prophecies about himself that he could not reasonably determine as being greatly possible due to the situation surrounding him. Since he knew people were calling him a Messiah, he merely reasoned that a Messiah also carries the connotation of a kingship, and to be proclaimed as being a king when it was not sanctioned by Caesar was an act of treason and war against the Roman empire.

So instead of fighting against the Messiah title, he decided to embrace it and argue that its meaning was spiritual as opposed to literal. This worked with many of his followers, but it fell upon deaf ears with the Pharisee and the Sadducee. They became fearful the Jesus' popularity and his followers' claim of being a Messiah would bring the Roman legions in to destroy the Jews in a war that the Jews at the time were not prepared for.

So they arrested him at night when his followers were few, and held him until day break until Pilate came on the scene. After blackmailing Pilate by insinuating that Pilate would be a traitor if he allowed a "king" to go free, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross.

After Jesus was crucified, his original followers- the apostles- went into hiding since they could also be condemned as traitors due to their association with Jesus. Some would be caught and stoned or killed by the Jews due to their blasphemy. As time passed, the remaining apostles re-organized and began to create an oral history- the Q document- of the sayings of Jesus.

Sometime soon after his crucifixion, Paul emerged on the scene as a man on a mission to hunt down and kill the remaining ring leaders- apostles- of the sect of the Nazarenes. Despite Paul's supposed conversion some time later, the remaining apostles didn't trust him to be privy to the apostles' inner circle. But they didn't want to anger him either, so they hatched a plot and sold it to Paul that he could be an apostle to the Gentiles, but not to the Jews. They just wanted him gone.

Paul, in his vanity, bought the plot hook, line, and sinker, and went on his merry way to present what little he knew about Jesus to the Gentiles. Unarmed and uneducated with knowledge, he had to fabricate things about Jesus by pretending that he alone was some kind of psychic channel for the spirit of Jesus Christ. he managed to gather together a few followers of his own, and thus the religion of Christianity was born, a strong competitor to the Nazarenes.

As the strength of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem waned after the death of James in CE 62 and due to the Roman-Jewish war in CE 70, Paul's Christian movement flourished because Christians hid their beliefs from both the Jews and the Romans for fear of persecution.

Today's Christianity is a very embellished version of Paul's concept, and even contradicts many of his teachings, particularly regarding the role of a woman in the church. This is because Paul's concept of Christianity was what Catholicism tried to mimic, but then Catholicism was challenged at the beginning of the renaissance, which resulted in the numerous denominations we have today.

And that's my view.

"Upon learning that some of his followers considered him a Messiah, Jesus tried to defuse and confuse the situation"

Mmmmmmm.

How would you explain him riding into Jerusalem like a King at Passover and being greeted by throngs of people? It sound to me much more like he really thought he was the messiah.

"So they arrested him at night"

"They" was a cohort of Roman soldiers. 500 sweaty men. They arrested the wannabe king of Israel.

"Some would be caught and stoned or killed by the Jews due to their blasphemy."

Not likely. I note your language..."the Jews." This is non sensical. "The Jews" were Jesus' own people.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 12:00 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2016 12:08 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 10:22 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(29-07-2016 09:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So...what do you think of Jesus?

Christian or Jew or something else?

Why was he crucified?

Would he have got on with Paul?

What do you think happened to the original followers of Jesus?

What do you think Christianity today is?

In my opinion ...

Jesus was a Nazarene priest from the priestly community of Nazareth. This particular sect of Judaism was not well received by the more orthodox Pharisee and Sadducee, and to the lesser extent, the Samaritans. Even the town where he came from, Nazareth, was not well regarded.

Jesus had a very unorthodox religious philosophy that, although it won him over many followers, it also created all the wrong enemies from the dominate Pharisee and Sadducee. His popularity flourished to such an extent that many of his zealous followers began to wonder if he could possibly be put into a position of being the promised Messiah who would deliver the Jews from Roman rule.

Upon learning that some of his followers considered him a Messiah, Jesus tried to defuse and confuse the situation by taking a more spiritual approach to the meaning of Messiah. He was afraid that if word got out about him being proclaimed as being a Messiah it would result in his arrest and possible execution by the chief priests, who were already looking for some excuse to trip him up because of his popularity.

Jesus never made any prophecies about himself that he could not reasonably determine as being greatly possible due to the situation surrounding him. Since he knew people were calling him a Messiah, he merely reasoned that a Messiah also carries the connotation of a kingship, and to be proclaimed as being a king when it was not sanctioned by Caesar was an act of treason and war against the Roman empire.

So instead of fighting against the Messiah title, he decided to embrace it and argue that its meaning was spiritual as opposed to literal. This worked with many of his followers, but it fell upon deaf ears with the Pharisee and the Sadducee. They became fearful the Jesus' popularity and his followers' claim of being a Messiah would bring the Roman legions in to destroy the Jews in a war that the Jews at the time were not prepared for.

So they arrested him at night when his followers were few, and held him until day break until Pilate came on the scene. After blackmailing Pilate by insinuating that Pilate would be a traitor if he allowed a "king" to go free, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross.

After Jesus was crucified, his original followers- the apostles- went into hiding since they could also be condemned as traitors due to their association with Jesus. Some would be caught and stoned or killed by the Jews due to their blasphemy. As time passed, the remaining apostles re-organized and began to create an oral history- the Q document- of the sayings of Jesus.

Sometime soon after his crucifixion, Paul emerged on the scene as a man on a mission to hunt down and kill the remaining ring leaders- apostles- of the sect of the Nazarenes. Despite Paul's supposed conversion some time later, the remaining apostles didn't trust him to be privy to the apostles' inner circle. But they didn't want to anger him either, so they hatched a plot and sold it to Paul that he could be an apostle to the Gentiles, but not to the Jews. They just wanted him gone.

Paul, in his vanity, bought the plot hook, line, and sinker, and went on his merry way to present what little he knew about Jesus to the Gentiles. Unarmed and uneducated with knowledge, he had to fabricate things about Jesus by pretending that he alone was some kind of psychic channel for the spirit of Jesus Christ. he managed to gather together a few followers of his own, and thus the religion of Christianity was born, a strong competitor to the Nazarenes.

As the strength of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem waned after the death of James in CE 62 and due to the Roman-Jewish war in CE 70, Paul's Christian movement flourished because Christians hid their beliefs from both the Jews and the Romans for fear of persecution.

Today's Christianity is a very embellished version of Paul's concept, and even contradicts many of his teachings, particularly regarding the role of a woman in the church. This is because Paul's concept of Christianity was what Catholicism tried to mimic, but then Catholicism was challenged at the beginning of the renaissance, which resulted in the numerous denominations we have today.

And that's my view.

"So instead of fighting against the Messiah title, he decided to embrace it and argue that its meaning was spiritual as opposed to literal."

Consider the historical reality. Here we have a poor, oppressed young Jewish religious fanatic. Some of hiis friends and relatives had been killed by Romans. He wandered around Galilee attracting crowds of people, and had an entourage of peasants disciples. His cousin John was killed by Herod for being a political threat. Do you really imagine he was preoccupied with the spiritual meaning of Messiah? Surely you can see the wood through the trees to realise that this has been written into the gospels and this guy was, in fact, trying to start a war?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 12:06 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2016 03:18 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 10:22 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(29-07-2016 09:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So...what do you think of Jesus?

Christian or Jew or something else?

Why was he crucified?

Would he have got on with Paul?

What do you think happened to the original followers of Jesus?

What do you think Christianity today is?

In my opinion ...

Jesus was a Nazarene priest from the priestly community of Nazareth. This particular sect of Judaism was not well received by the more orthodox Pharisee and Sadducee, and to the lesser extent, the Samaritans. Even the town where he came from, Nazareth, was not well regarded.

Jesus had a very unorthodox religious philosophy that, although it won him over many followers, it also created all the wrong enemies from the dominate Pharisee and Sadducee. His popularity flourished to such an extent that many of his zealous followers began to wonder if he could possibly be put into a position of being the promised Messiah who would deliver the Jews from Roman rule.

Upon learning that some of his followers considered him a Messiah, Jesus tried to defuse and confuse the situation by taking a more spiritual approach to the meaning of Messiah. He was afraid that if word got out about him being proclaimed as being a Messiah it would result in his arrest and possible execution by the chief priests, who were already looking for some excuse to trip him up because of his popularity.

Jesus never made any prophecies about himself that he could not reasonably determine as being greatly possible due to the situation surrounding him. Since he knew people were calling him a Messiah, he merely reasoned that a Messiah also carries the connotation of a kingship, and to be proclaimed as being a king when it was not sanctioned by Caesar was an act of treason and war against the Roman empire.

So instead of fighting against the Messiah title, he decided to embrace it and argue that its meaning was spiritual as opposed to literal. This worked with many of his followers, but it fell upon deaf ears with the Pharisee and the Sadducee. They became fearful the Jesus' popularity and his followers' claim of being a Messiah would bring the Roman legions in to destroy the Jews in a war that the Jews at the time were not prepared for.

So they arrested him at night when his followers were few, and held him until day break until Pilate came on the scene. After blackmailing Pilate by insinuating that Pilate would be a traitor if he allowed a "king" to go free, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross.

After Jesus was crucified, his original followers- the apostles- went into hiding since they could also be condemned as traitors due to their association with Jesus. Some would be caught and stoned or killed by the Jews due to their blasphemy. As time passed, the remaining apostles re-organized and began to create an oral history- the Q document- of the sayings of Jesus.

Sometime soon after his crucifixion, Paul emerged on the scene as a man on a mission to hunt down and kill the remaining ring leaders- apostles- of the sect of the Nazarenes. Despite Paul's supposed conversion some time later, the remaining apostles didn't trust him to be privy to the apostles' inner circle. But they didn't want to anger him either, so they hatched a plot and sold it to Paul that he could be an apostle to the Gentiles, but not to the Jews. They just wanted him gone.

Paul, in his vanity, bought the plot hook, line, and sinker, and went on his merry way to present what little he knew about Jesus to the Gentiles. Unarmed and uneducated with knowledge, he had to fabricate things about Jesus by pretending that he alone was some kind of psychic channel for the spirit of Jesus Christ. he managed to gather together a few followers of his own, and thus the religion of Christianity was born, a strong competitor to the Nazarenes.

As the strength of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem waned after the death of James in CE 62 and due to the Roman-Jewish war in CE 70, Paul's Christian movement flourished because Christians hid their beliefs from both the Jews and the Romans for fear of persecution.

Today's Christianity is a very embellished version of Paul's concept, and even contradicts many of his teachings, particularly regarding the role of a woman in the church. This is because Paul's concept of Christianity was what Catholicism tried to mimic, but then Catholicism was challenged at the beginning of the renaissance, which resulted in the numerous denominations we have today.

And that's my view.

Sometime soon after his crucifixion, Paul emerged on the scene as a man on a mission to hunt down and kill the remaining ring leaders- apostles- of the sect of the Nazarenes.

I find this highly unlikely for the following reasons...

The Bible’s first mention of Paul is in Acts, where he is depicted as a devout Pharisee. Paul is portrayed as a bitter persecutor of Jesus’ followers in Jerusalem. This persecution was unlikely. Jesus’ original followers, the Nazarenes, were Jews, not Christians. Pharisees commonly argued with other Jews over the interpretation of Scripture, yet they did not physically attack those with different opinions.

There is no historical record of overt antagonism between Pharisees and Nazarenes in the 50’s and 60’s. In Acts, the author even relates an incident in which Peter (a disciple of Jesus) was saved by a speech from Gamaliel, the leader of the Pharisees, from being sentenced to death by the Sadducees (Acts 5:37.) You do not save someone from persecution if you are persecuting him!

It is more likely that the disciples, family, and other followers of Yeshua lived reasonably harmoniously next to Pharisees in Jerusalem for decades. Both parties were firm upholders of the Jewish Law.

If there was any conflict, it was between the Sadducees (the high priests) and the Nazarenes. The high priest occasionally physically persecuted the Nazarenes - Yeshua’s death is one example, and James’ (Jesus’ brother) murder under the orders of the high priest in 62 CE is another.

If Paul did, in fact, attack Yeshua’s followers, it would have been under the direction of the Sadducees, who were allied to the Roman establishment.

Was Paul the sort of man who could physically kill someone? Hardly! He might badger someone to death with his complaining, or bore them to death with his rambling about Christ, but he was not a physical sort of guy. Paul was a nancy boy, a dreamer, a schemer, a manipulator - not an aggressive man who could cut someone's throat. The public service was not a place for gladiators.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 12:16 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2016 03:35 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 10:22 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(29-07-2016 09:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So...what do you think of Jesus?

Christian or Jew or something else?

Why was he crucified?

Would he have got on with Paul?

What do you think happened to the original followers of Jesus?

What do you think Christianity today is?

In my opinion ...

Jesus was a Nazarene priest from the priestly community of Nazareth. This particular sect of Judaism was not well received by the more orthodox Pharisee and Sadducee, and to the lesser extent, the Samaritans. Even the town where he came from, Nazareth, was not well regarded.

Jesus had a very unorthodox religious philosophy that, although it won him over many followers, it also created all the wrong enemies from the dominate Pharisee and Sadducee. His popularity flourished to such an extent that many of his zealous followers began to wonder if he could possibly be put into a position of being the promised Messiah who would deliver the Jews from Roman rule.

Upon learning that some of his followers considered him a Messiah, Jesus tried to defuse and confuse the situation by taking a more spiritual approach to the meaning of Messiah. He was afraid that if word got out about him being proclaimed as being a Messiah it would result in his arrest and possible execution by the chief priests, who were already looking for some excuse to trip him up because of his popularity.

Jesus never made any prophecies about himself that he could not reasonably determine as being greatly possible due to the situation surrounding him. Since he knew people were calling him a Messiah, he merely reasoned that a Messiah also carries the connotation of a kingship, and to be proclaimed as being a king when it was not sanctioned by Caesar was an act of treason and war against the Roman empire.

So instead of fighting against the Messiah title, he decided to embrace it and argue that its meaning was spiritual as opposed to literal. This worked with many of his followers, but it fell upon deaf ears with the Pharisee and the Sadducee. They became fearful the Jesus' popularity and his followers' claim of being a Messiah would bring the Roman legions in to destroy the Jews in a war that the Jews at the time were not prepared for.

So they arrested him at night when his followers were few, and held him until day break until Pilate came on the scene. After blackmailing Pilate by insinuating that Pilate would be a traitor if he allowed a "king" to go free, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross.

After Jesus was crucified, his original followers- the apostles- went into hiding since they could also be condemned as traitors due to their association with Jesus. Some would be caught and stoned or killed by the Jews due to their blasphemy. As time passed, the remaining apostles re-organized and began to create an oral history- the Q document- of the sayings of Jesus.

Sometime soon after his crucifixion, Paul emerged on the scene as a man on a mission to hunt down and kill the remaining ring leaders- apostles- of the sect of the Nazarenes. Despite Paul's supposed conversion some time later, the remaining apostles didn't trust him to be privy to the apostles' inner circle. But they didn't want to anger him either, so they hatched a plot and sold it to Paul that he could be an apostle to the Gentiles, but not to the Jews. They just wanted him gone.

Paul, in his vanity, bought the plot hook, line, and sinker, and went on his merry way to present what little he knew about Jesus to the Gentiles. Unarmed and uneducated with knowledge, he had to fabricate things about Jesus by pretending that he alone was some kind of psychic channel for the spirit of Jesus Christ. he managed to gather together a few followers of his own, and thus the religion of Christianity was born, a strong competitor to the Nazarenes.

As the strength of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem waned after the death of James in CE 62 and due to the Roman-Jewish war in CE 70, Paul's Christian movement flourished because Christians hid their beliefs from both the Jews and the Romans for fear of persecution.

Today's Christianity is a very embellished version of Paul's concept, and even contradicts many of his teachings, particularly regarding the role of a woman in the church. This is because Paul's concept of Christianity was what Catholicism tried to mimic, but then Catholicism was challenged at the beginning of the renaissance, which resulted in the numerous denominations we have today.

And that's my view.

But they didn't want to anger him either, so they hatched a plot and sold it to Paul that he could be an apostle to the Gentiles, but not to the Jews. They just wanted him gone.

I wonder why you think the Nazarenes were intimidated by Paul? Paul had no power in his own time. He was a legend in his own lunchbox, and I'm sure he could rant on, but he commanded no men, and had no legitimate authority, a fact that seems to have been glaringly obvious to any Jews who had anything to do with him.

Why would the very people who were the family and disciples of Jesus be intimidated by a pro Roman half Jew rabbiting on about a Christ? They knew that Paul had never met Jesus and therefore could not be an authority on him.

PS Or do you think Paul was in league with the Sadducees and thereby could throw some weight around?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 12:28 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2016 03:20 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 10:22 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(29-07-2016 09:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So...what do you think of Jesus?

Christian or Jew or something else?

Why was he crucified?

Would he have got on with Paul?

What do you think happened to the original followers of Jesus?

What do you think Christianity today is?

In my opinion ...

Jesus was a Nazarene priest from the priestly community of Nazareth. This particular sect of Judaism was not well received by the more orthodox Pharisee and Sadducee, and to the lesser extent, the Samaritans. Even the town where he came from, Nazareth, was not well regarded.

Jesus had a very unorthodox religious philosophy that, although it won him over many followers, it also created all the wrong enemies from the dominate Pharisee and Sadducee. His popularity flourished to such an extent that many of his zealous followers began to wonder if he could possibly be put into a position of being the promised Messiah who would deliver the Jews from Roman rule.

Upon learning that some of his followers considered him a Messiah, Jesus tried to defuse and confuse the situation by taking a more spiritual approach to the meaning of Messiah. He was afraid that if word got out about him being proclaimed as being a Messiah it would result in his arrest and possible execution by the chief priests, who were already looking for some excuse to trip him up because of his popularity.

Jesus never made any prophecies about himself that he could not reasonably determine as being greatly possible due to the situation surrounding him. Since he knew people were calling him a Messiah, he merely reasoned that a Messiah also carries the connotation of a kingship, and to be proclaimed as being a king when it was not sanctioned by Caesar was an act of treason and war against the Roman empire.

So instead of fighting against the Messiah title, he decided to embrace it and argue that its meaning was spiritual as opposed to literal. This worked with many of his followers, but it fell upon deaf ears with the Pharisee and the Sadducee. They became fearful the Jesus' popularity and his followers' claim of being a Messiah would bring the Roman legions in to destroy the Jews in a war that the Jews at the time were not prepared for.

So they arrested him at night when his followers were few, and held him until day break until Pilate came on the scene. After blackmailing Pilate by insinuating that Pilate would be a traitor if he allowed a "king" to go free, Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross.

After Jesus was crucified, his original followers- the apostles- went into hiding since they could also be condemned as traitors due to their association with Jesus. Some would be caught and stoned or killed by the Jews due to their blasphemy. As time passed, the remaining apostles re-organized and began to create an oral history- the Q document- of the sayings of Jesus.

Sometime soon after his crucifixion, Paul emerged on the scene as a man on a mission to hunt down and kill the remaining ring leaders- apostles- of the sect of the Nazarenes. Despite Paul's supposed conversion some time later, the remaining apostles didn't trust him to be privy to the apostles' inner circle. But they didn't want to anger him either, so they hatched a plot and sold it to Paul that he could be an apostle to the Gentiles, but not to the Jews. They just wanted him gone.

Paul, in his vanity, bought the plot hook, line, and sinker, and went on his merry way to present what little he knew about Jesus to the Gentiles. Unarmed and uneducated with knowledge, he had to fabricate things about Jesus by pretending that he alone was some kind of psychic channel for the spirit of Jesus Christ. he managed to gather together a few followers of his own, and thus the religion of Christianity was born, a strong competitor to the Nazarenes.

As the strength of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem waned after the death of James in CE 62 and due to the Roman-Jewish war in CE 70, Paul's Christian movement flourished because Christians hid their beliefs from both the Jews and the Romans for fear of persecution.

Today's Christianity is a very embellished version of Paul's concept, and even contradicts many of his teachings, particularly regarding the role of a woman in the church. This is because Paul's concept of Christianity was what Catholicism tried to mimic, but then Catholicism was challenged at the beginning of the renaissance, which resulted in the numerous denominations we have today.

And that's my view.

"Paul, in his vanity... went on his merry way to present what little he knew about Jesus to the Gentiles. Unarmed and uneducated with knowledge, he had to fabricate things about Jesus by pretending that he alone was some kind of psychic channel for the spirit of Jesus Christ. he managed to gather together a few followers of his own, and thus the religion of Christianity was born, a strong competitor to the Nazarenes."

I sort of agree with this. I suspect there were many "Pauls," all agents of the Roman government, and this was how Christianity was born. It just happens that Paul's writings survived. And, yes, I have no proof of this "many Pauls" hypothesis...I am just having an educated guess.Big Grin
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 03:31 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 08:21 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(29-07-2016 07:24 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I happen to think it's very relevant whether the author of Luke talked to eyewitnesses or not. Not that I, personally, take any of these writings seriously, but there are Christians who do, and I don't like what Christianity has done to my world. If Christians everywhere were somehow to wake up to the fact how fabricated the nonsense they believe is, then the world will be a better place.

But you see, that's the purpose of actual history, Mark.

We both know that the stories of Jesus, for the most part at least, are embellishments and fabrications. The stories about his miracles are beyond the ability to logically and reasonably believe.

We can launch an attack against Christianity by using every device imaginable, but all you will ever do is alienate the masses of Christians and have them stand united against you.

They believe. We don't.

But having an agenda that is hell-bent at attacking Christianity from the position of disbelief and ridicule will never uncover the truth because its aim has nothing to do with the truth.

History tries to answer the questions and uncover the truth, bit by bit. Exposing Jesus as merely an ordinary man who had his life exaggerated by his followers is far more practical than trying to re-invent a history of complete myth, or trying to create a new history based upon improbabilities and shoddy historical data.

Personally I find the arguments for complete myth to be even less believable than the miracles attributed to Jesus for the simple reason that they are at the very least complete fabrications with no basis in truth whatsoever. It's a smoke and mirror game, but those of us with a decent education cannot be fooled by it. It may appeal to the young and the uneducated, but to those of us with degrees in knowledge, it has no hope whatsoever of ever being regarded as actual history.

"Personally I find the arguments for complete myth to be even less believable than the miracles attributed to Jesus..."

Oops! Did you really mean to write this?

"...for the simple reason that they are at the very least complete fabrications with no basis in truth whatsoever. It's a smoke and mirror game, but those of us with a decent education cannot be fooled by it. It may appeal to the young and the uneducated, but to those of us with degrees in knowledge, it has no hope whatsoever of ever being regarded as actual history."

You sound very confident that there was a Jesus. Please explain why ( you can leave out the Tacitus bit...I've read that already). Bear in mind that I think there was a Jesus too, but I'm less confident than you.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 08:38 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 11:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  /quote]

Mmmm.

Interesting.

I hope you won't get upset by me pointing out a few things.

"Jesus was a Nazarene priest"

Um...I think a Jewish priest was a Sadducee, so I'm not sure Jesus would have considered himself a priest. He probably though the Sadducees of his time were illegitimate priests, as they had been installed by the Romans.

All sects and sub-sects had designated priests. This is why James was permitted in the temple in Jerusalem.

Quote:"from the priestly community of Nazareth."

which we have no evidence of, but let's no go there lol. We do have evidence for an already existing sect known as the Nazarenes. I'm not going out on a limb here... I think this is pretty well-established. John the Baptist was a Nazarene.

It's good we don't go there, as my position is that there is plenty of evidence that cannot be reasonably and logically dismissed.

Quote:Jesus had a very unorthodox religious philosophy that, although it won him over many followers, it also created all the wrong enemies from the dominate Pharisee and Sadducee.

I think it's very unlikely that Jesus had an unorthodox religious philosophy. The Nazarenes were quite orthodox.

If they were an off-shoot of the Essene, which all available evidence allows us to reasonably ponder, then they were unorthodox. Even today, Jewish orthodoxy is based upon the ancient Pharisees.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 08:51 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Hey GoingUp.
I admit I was initially wrong about you. You do know of the history.

One thing intrigues me. The more I have learned about history, the more I have learned to doubt. Whereas you seem very sure. May I ask why?

Obviously you know how early historians wrote. You must also know how religious zealots wrote. So with all this in mind, I fail to understand your attitude.

Could you enlighten me? Thanks. D.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 09:02 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2016 10:04 AM by GoingUp.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(29-07-2016 11:50 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
Quote:"Upon learning that some of his followers considered him a Messiah, Jesus tried to defuse and confuse the situation"

Mmmmmmm.

How would you explain him riding into Jerusalem like a King at Passover and being greeted by throngs of people? It sound to me much more like he really thought he was the messiah.

Not a Messiah of war. That was his contention with being hailed as a Messiah.

If he would have rode into Jerusalem on a horse, it would depict him as a Messianic King seeking war. But since it was a donkey, the donkey represents a Messianic King seeking peace.

This is why I told you that he was afraid of being claimed as being a Messiah, because in the minds of most orthodox Jews the Messiah would be a man of war.

More on that here.



Quote:
Quote:"So they arrested him at night"

"They" was a cohort of Roman soldiers. 500 sweaty men. They arrested the wannabe king of Israel.

Where are you getting the 500 soldiers from?

Quote:
Quote:Some would be caught and stoned or killed by the Jews due to their blasphemy."

Not likely. I note your language..."the Jews." This is non sensical. "The Jews" were Jesus' own people.

It's not nonsensical when we are speaking about it from the perspective of a non Jew. The Jews stoned other Jews.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2016, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2016 09:32 AM by GoingUp.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(30-07-2016 08:51 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Hey GoingUp.
I admit I was initially wrong about you. You do know of the history.

One thing intrigues me. The more I have learned about history, the more I have learned to doubt. Whereas you seem very sure. May I ask why?

Obviously you know how early historians wrote. You must also know how religious zealots wrote. So with all this in mind, I fail to understand your attitude.

Could you enlighten me? Thanks. D.

Thank you for your kind words.

I think the difference between you and me is that I was never in a position to doubt because I was never in a position to believe in the first place. I was not brought up with even a hint of religious beliefs, and was never influenced by anybody to believe in any kind of religion.

That is why I am neither an atheist or a theist. I am truly secular and completely indifferent to religious beliefs.

The early zealots wrote what they believed to be true. The point is that I view what they wrote as being nothing more than what they were already predisposed to believe. With this knowledge and understanding of these ancient zealots, we need to understand that since they actually believed what they wrote, then there was no conscious decision by them to out-right lie.

There is a difference between a person who writes about what he believes to be true, and a person who intentionally lies. These ancient people would twist the truth- not because they were lying- but because the actual truth didn't work with their incredibly strong beliefs. If anything contradicted what they believed, they would find a way to justify their beliefs instead of admitting to the contradiction.

That is the way people were in those days. They can't even be compared to modern belief systems, although Islam has some parallels.

Therefore, when we look at what they wrote, instead of looking for ways to contradict them or for lies, the best and most honest view you can take is to understand that these ancient people earnestly believed what they were writing.

So from there we can understand that those ancient people actually believed that what they were saying was the "God given truth".

Now, because they believed that such things as the miracles and other fantastic things were actual events, then the more mundane and probable things they wrote about, such as Jesus being crucified by Pilate, should not be viewed as any kind of embellishment because there was no reason to embellish it.

It required no beliefs to say that Jesus was crucified, or that he had gathered apostles together, or that the Jewish high priests conspired against him. There is nothing with this stuff that enables us to view it as anything that is so fantastic that it requires belief.

My position therefore is that I view these gospel stories not from my position of belief or disbelief, but from the ancient writers' position of beliefs as well as their position that, as far as they were concerned, they were telling the truth with no doubts about it.

Using this approach we see what they believed to be true, and we also see what they knew to be true.

Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: