Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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02-08-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 12:35 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 12:29 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The First Cause argument...also known as an argument from ignorance.

"Well, I can't conceive of the Universe being uncaused, therefore I believe it has a cause."

Unfortunately, so is the argument for Indeterminism.

""Well, I can't conceive of the Universe being caused, therefore I believe it was not caused."

Except I didn't say I believed the universe is uncaused. That is a straw man.

"I don't know" is an acceptable answer with regards to some questions. Presuming to know the answer in spite of a lack of evidence and logic, is what the religious do.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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02-08-2016, 12:50 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 12:54 PM by GoingUp.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 12:41 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 12:35 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Unfortunately, so is the argument for Indeterminism.

""Well, I can't conceive of the Universe being caused, therefore I believe it was not caused."

Except I didn't say I believed the universe is uncaused. That is a straw man.

"I don't know" is an acceptable answer with regards to some questions. Presuming to know the answer in spite of a lack of evidence and logic, is what the religious do.

Right.

But I never suggested what YOU believed. I simply pointed out the contrast to the position you posted.

Also ...

GoingUp Wrote:We just don't know what it could be, if it even exists.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...pid1041235
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02-08-2016, 12:56 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 12:50 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 12:41 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Except I didn't say I believed the universe is uncaused. That is a straw man.

"I don't know" is an acceptable answer with regards to some questions. Presuming to know the answer in spite of a lack of evidence and logic, is what the religious do.

Right.

Quote:We just don't know what it could be, if it even exists.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...pid1041235

We don't know if a cause is or isn't necessary. Making any assumptions about a first cause that you don't know is even necessary is where you cross into the argument from ignorance. You presume a first cause makes more sense than no first cause. Being wish-washy about the characteristics/qualities of the proposed first cause don't make you look any less desperate than the religious using the argument to advocate for a god.

We don't know if a first cause is even necessary for the universe to exist. Full stop.

If a first cause is necessary, there are no reasons to presume it is anything other than a non-sentient and natural cause, compatible with the rest of our observations of the universe. Defining or describing it in any way is an argument from ignorance because you can't describe something in any meaningful way when you know literally nothing about it and can measure literally nothing about it. Full stop.

If a first cause is not necessary, then all presumptions about it are fiction. Full stop.


edit to add to reply:
"But I never suggested what YOU believed. I simply pointed out the contrast to the position you posted."

Then your reply about indeterminism wasn't a straw man and was instead a red herring.

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02-08-2016, 12:58 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
When did a thread about the lack of contemporary evidence of Jesus become a thread on the argument from ignorance that is the argument of a first cause for the universe?

190 pages and no evidence. Drinking Beverage carry on

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02-08-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 12:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Then your reply about indeterminism wasn't a straw man and was instead a red herring.

Explain how it qualifies as a red herring, because I don't see it.
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02-08-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 01:03 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 12:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Then your reply about indeterminism wasn't a straw man and was instead a red herring.

Explain how it qualifies as a red herring, because I don't see it.

Because it was a distraction from the point I was making about the first cause argument being an argument from ignorance. I point out it is an argument from ignorance, so pointing out that SOMETHING ELSE is also an argument from ignorance is a distraction from my critique.

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02-08-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 12:58 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When did a thread about the lack of contemporary evidence of Jesus become a thread on the argument from ignorance that is the argument of a first cause for the universe?

190 pages and no evidence. Drinking Beverage carry on

Paul.

He's evidence.

Nuff said.

Drinking Beverage
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02-08-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 01:05 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 12:58 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When did a thread about the lack of contemporary evidence of Jesus become a thread on the argument from ignorance that is the argument of a first cause for the universe?

190 pages and no evidence. Drinking Beverage carry on

Paul.

He's evidence.

Nuff said.

Drinking Beverage

Not contemporary.

Enough said

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02-08-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 01:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 01:03 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Explain how it qualifies as a red herring, because I don't see it.

Because it was a distraction from the point I was making about the first cause argument being an argument from ignorance. I point out it is an argument from ignorance, so pointing out that SOMETHING ELSE is also an argument from ignorance is a distraction from my critique.

I disagree, since showing the contrast was on point.
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02-08-2016, 01:11 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-08-2016 01:06 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 01:05 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Paul.

He's evidence.

Nuff said.

Drinking Beverage

Not contemporary.

Enough said

Contemporary:

1. existing, occurring, or living at the same time; belonging to the same time:

2. of about the same age or date

3. of the present time; modern:

4. a person belonging to the same time or period with another or others.

5. a person of the same age as another.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/contemporary

Paul lived during the same time and place of Jesus, wrote about him, and whether or not he ever met him has nothing to do with the fact that he was a contemporary.

Nuff said.

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