Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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06-08-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:26 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  My "belief system" is verifiable history, supported by tangible evidence, and agreed upon by a consensus of qualified professional historians.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy (also known as a vox populi),[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans").

Except that doesn't apply here, since this is not an "appeal to the people." You cannot compare a consensus of professionals to the general population of the people.

You can't even claim my position to be an argument to authority, for the simple reason that the consensus is more than a non relevant singular authority (who is not an expert in the subject), and it represents a panel of experts.

A consensus of experts does not mean they are guaranteed to be correct, it only means that the probability that their position approximates the truth is far greater than yours.

Argumentum ad numerum
Appealing to the Gallery, Appealing to Numbers

Argumentum ad numeram and argumentum ad populam are closely related fallacies of logic. Fallacious ad numeram arguments take the position that the veracity of an argument can be determined by the number of people who support or believe the proposition.
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06-08-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:44 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:26 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Except that doesn't apply here, since this is not an "appeal to the people." You cannot compare a consensus of professionals to the general population of the people.

You can't even claim my position to be an argument to authority, for the simple reason that the consensus is more than a non relevant singular authority (who is not an expert in the subject), and it represents a panel of experts.

A consensus of experts does not mean they are guaranteed to be correct, it only means that the probability that their position approximates the truth is far greater than yours.

Argumentum ad numerum
Appealing to the Gallery, Appealing to Numbers

Argumentum ad numeram and argumentum ad populam are closely related fallacies of logic. Fallacious ad numeram arguments take the position that the veracity of an argument can be determined by the number of people who support or believe the proposition.

Sorry, but that doesn't work here either. A consensus of experts is not the peanut gallery of non experts.
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06-08-2016, 05:50 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2016 05:57 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:43 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:41 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "A consensus of experts does not mean they are guaranteed to be correct,"

AH HA!

That being the case, please raise the level of discussion here, and stop pretending it is so.

Please look at the title of this forum....

" The....thinking....atheist's....forum"

It is NOT

" The... consensus... of... historians, most... of... whom... are... Christians.... in.... Christian ....universities, forum"

The name of this forum is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing on this form.

Unless of course you think that all subjects that have nothing to do with pure atheism should be removed?

Not at all. Please post opinions, facts and evidence, but cut out the "most historians..." crap.

You would do well to remember that people here do not have the fawning, doting admiration for biased pro Christian apologist "experts" that you so obviously do. By all means present their arguments, which everyone is interested in, but that will do, thanks. Your opinions on how they constitute a majority are irrelevant.
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06-08-2016, 05:50 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:44 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:26 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Except that doesn't apply here, since this is not an "appeal to the people." You cannot compare a consensus of professionals to the general population of the people.

You can't even claim my position to be an argument to authority, for the simple reason that the consensus is more than a non relevant singular authority (who is not an expert in the subject), and it represents a panel of experts.

A consensus of experts does not mean they are guaranteed to be correct, it only means that the probability that their position approximates the truth is far greater than yours.

Argumentum ad numerum
Appealing to the Gallery, Appealing to Numbers

Argumentum ad numeram and argumentum ad populam are closely related fallacies of logic. Fallacious ad numeram arguments take the position that the veracity of an argument can be determined by the number of people who support or believe the proposition.

Like the global warming thing. They have stopped making predictions about what will happen, now it is just everybody believes it so it has to be true. They have completely dismissed the fact that in the 1970's they predicted that the rise in sea level would be between 2 and 3 meters before the end of that century, which never happened, so now their loud cry is everybody believes it so it has to be true! No more evidence necessary!
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06-08-2016, 05:59 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:50 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:43 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  The name of this forum is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing on this form.

Unless of course you think that all subjects that have nothing to do with pure atheism should be removed?

Not at all.

You would do well to remember that most people here do not have the fawning, doting admiration for biased pro Christian apologist "experts" that you so obviously do.

Not true.

I respect all those who are qualified in this subject, regardless if they are atheist, Christian, or otherwise. But because I am secular, I am naturally inclined to be able to see when an atheist's or theist's professional's bias is influencing their judgment.

That's the benefit of being secular as opposed to being a fire & brimstone theist or a hard-core militant atheist.
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06-08-2016, 06:21 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:59 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:50 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Not at all.

You would do well to remember that most people here do not have the fawning, doting admiration for biased pro Christian apologist "experts" that you so obviously do.

Not true.

I respect all those who are qualified in this subject, regardless if they are atheist, Christian, or otherwise. But because I am secular, I am naturally inclined to be able to see when an atheist's or theist's professional's bias is influencing their judgment.

That's the benefit of being secular as opposed to being a fire & brimstone theist or a hard-core militant atheist.

Ok. Please stop presuming that you, and only you, know who is "qualified" and who isn't. In fact, please cut out this "qualified" business completely...it gets you nowhere, and it is tedious for everyone to read, as we all know you have just picked out people who agree with you. Same as I do.

The so called "experts" make mistakes the same as anyone else.

Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one. I want to hear yours, but I don't want to read pages about how everyone agrees with you, and how everyone who doesn't is "unqualified."

JUST STICK TO THE ARGUMENT.
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06-08-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:50 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:44 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Argumentum ad numerum
Appealing to the Gallery, Appealing to Numbers

Argumentum ad numeram and argumentum ad populam are closely related fallacies of logic. Fallacious ad numeram arguments take the position that the veracity of an argument can be determined by the number of people who support or believe the proposition.

Like the global warming thing. They have stopped making predictions about what will happen, now it is just everybody believes it so it has to be true. They have completely dismissed the fact that in the 1970's they predicted that the rise in sea level would be between 2 and 3 meters before the end of that century, which never happened, so now their loud cry is everybody believes it so it has to be true! No more evidence necessary!

Not sure if this is a fair comparison.

History deals with the static past.

But climate change deals with an uncertain future.
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06-08-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 05:59 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:50 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Not at all.

You would do well to remember that most people here do not have the fawning, doting admiration for biased pro Christian apologist "experts" that you so obviously do.

Not true.

I respect all those who are qualified in this subject, regardless if they are atheist, Christian, or otherwise. But because I am secular, I am naturally inclined to be able to see when an atheist's or theist's professional's bias is influencing their judgment.

That's the benefit of being secular as opposed to being a fire & brimstone theist or a hard-core militant atheist.

That's the benefit of being secular as opposed to being a fire & brimstone theist or a hard-core militant atheist.

Please stop telling us how good you are, and stick to an argument instead. I'm tired of your waffling.
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06-08-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 06:23 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:50 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  Like the global warming thing. They have stopped making predictions about what will happen, now it is just everybody believes it so it has to be true. They have completely dismissed the fact that in the 1970's they predicted that the rise in sea level would be between 2 and 3 meters before the end of that century, which never happened, so now their loud cry is everybody believes it so it has to be true! No more evidence necessary!

Not sure if this is a fair comparison.

History deals with the static past.

But climate change deals with an uncertain future.

But us non scienterrific types are expected to believe it because "Most scientists believe it." Not because it makes any sense, not because the predictions they made about and for it were correct, but merely now because they say so! I will never have any means of checking how many ppm of co2 or whatever there is at present in Antarctica as opposed to what amount that was there in 1600 AD, but when they predict that the sea level will rise by 2 meters, that is something i can check on.
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06-08-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 05:59 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Not true.

I respect all those who are qualified in this subject, regardless if they are atheist, Christian, or otherwise. But because I am secular, I am naturally inclined to be able to see when an atheist's or theist's professional's bias is influencing their judgment.

That's the benefit of being secular as opposed to being a fire & brimstone theist or a hard-core militant atheist.

Ok. Please stop presuming that you, and only you, know who is "qualified" and who isn't. In fact, please cut out this "qualified" business completely...it gets you nowhere, and it is tedious for everyone to read, as we all know you have just picked out people who agree with you. Same as I do.

The so called "experts" make mistakes the same as anyone else.

Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one. I want to hear yours, but I don't want to read pages about how everyone agrees with you, and how everyone who doesn't is "unqualified."

JUST STICK TO THE ARGUMENT.

Let's put you into a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Let's pretend that you, being a doctor, had a patient who needed a specific procedure done. You do the procedure, but something goes wrong and it didn't go perfectly. The patient says you used a procedure that hasn't been proven to be effective, although you know it has in fact been proven. He takes you to court to sue for malpractice.

In court, you are prepared to defend yourself. You have documentation of how the procedure works, and also the history of the development of the procedure.

Would that be enough to convince a judge? Or ..

Would you get 3 or 4 other professionals who have the same experience with the procedure as you do to testify on your behalf that the procedure is, in fact, valid?

What would be the wise course of action, Mark?
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