Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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06-08-2016, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2016 01:36 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 07:44 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 07:06 PM)Banjo Wrote:  To say Paul was a contemporary, shows me plainly you are not a historian.

Since all the available evidence indicates he lived at the same time as Jesus, it indicates that he was, indeed, a contemporary.

And with virtually all modern scholars, this is simply a forgone conclusion. It's not even debated.

Wrong. When "Paul" was first written is often debated in academic circles. The so called "pastoral epistles" are often said to be written in the early second century. "Paul's" "genuine" letters are sometimes said to have been written by Marcion, and I was reading an article last night that claimed all the Pauline epistles are second century (I can't find it now.) You need to read more widely.

Just for the record, my opinion is that Paul's genuine epistles were originally written in the 50's and 60's, yet I'm not arrogant enough to state that as absolute fact.

PS. Just found it...
http://www.egodeath.com/thefabricatedpaul.htm
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06-08-2016, 11:50 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 10:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 10:08 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  That which exists can never be "nothing." Therefore, it shows "something."

The "something" that the text indicates is that Paul seen Jesus.

This leaves the only two choices we can make:

1. Paul seen Jesus.

2. Paul did not see Jesus.

The text is the only evidence available, so what you need to do is disprove what the text says, otherwise we have no reason to dismiss it as evidence that not only was Paul a contemporary of Jesus, but he was also an eyewitness.

So provide some evidence and good reasoning why this text should be dismissed.

Paul "seen" Jesus is not correct English. You have no advanced degree.
The text "indicates" nothing. Religious writing contains all sorts of garbage. It's NOT "HISTORICAL". It's a product of FAITH.
Your idiotic assertion is false. It does not take into account the nature of the literature in question, (among other things). If what you say it true, YOU also must accept the Greek myths as factual, and need to refute them. I don't buy your assumptions, and you don't get to tell anyone what they "need to do", you arrogant patronizing SOB.
The Greek words used also can be translated as "made evident" (not necessarily "seen"), but since you're a scholar of nothing, I doubt you know anything about the "alternate resurrection" views.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

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07-08-2016, 12:02 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2016 01:17 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 10:49 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 10:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Paul "seen" Jesus is not correct English.

It's lexiconical, deal with it.

Quote:The text "indicates" nothing. Religious writing contains all sorts of garbage. It's NOT "HISTORICAL". It's a product of FAITH.

You are certainly hooked on this "everything is a faith based thing," but now that must prove itself to be the ultimate truth, and the only way you can do that is by YOU proving it.

So therefore, prove that the text is nothing but a product of faith, and that it cannot be an actual event.

So ... let's see your evidence to prove your claim.


Quote:Your idiotic assertion is false. It does not take into account the nature of the literature in question, (among other things). If what you say it true, YOU also must accept the Greek myths as factual, and need to refute them. I don't buy your assumptions, and you don't get to tell anyone what they "need to do", you arrogant patronizing SOB.

But my position has nothing to do with any Greek myths. My position is only that Paul claims to have seen Jesus in that text. He says nothing in that text that could be viewed as mythical in any way.

So, "Mr. Insufferable Know-It-All," let's see if you can put your fucking money where your obviously uneducated mouth is, and prove your idiotic stupid-ass claim.

How's that for being patronizing? Put up, or shut the fuck up.

Big Grin

So therefore, prove that the text is nothing but a product of faith, and that it cannot be an actual event.

I'm sure Bucky will shoot you off at the kneecaps, but I'll throw my $.02 worth in.

1. Paul never met a living Jesus. If he did he would've said so, along with the details including a description of Jesus. He doesn't, so he didn't. End of story.

2. Dead people do not come back to life. So he never did meet a dead Jesus except maybe, perhaps in his imagination, in the same way we might have a dream about our dead grandmother. End of story.

So "Paul" claiming Jesus appeared to him is either a lie, a description of a dream or an hallucination, or an interpolation. End of story.

PS. My opinion is that it is an interpolation, and a rather pathetically obvious one at that. Second century Christians had great trouble proving that a flesh and blood Jesus ever existed. Making Paul meet Jesus was an amateurish insertion.
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07-08-2016, 01:34 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(06-08-2016 09:13 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(06-08-2016 09:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is also absolutely no evidence or reason that anything those writing propaganda letters in the name of "Paul" said can or should be taken as reliable.

Are you suggesting this letter isn't genuine?

Apologies for interrupting.

What do you mean by genuine? Written by "Paul?" If so, no one knows for sure whether any letter, or how much of any letter, was written by a "Paul" we think we know.

If you are trying to claim a character known as "Paul" was a "genuine" ie a truthful character, are you serious? "Paul" was a lying, scheeming, inconsistent weazel of a man.
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07-08-2016, 09:11 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Quote:Man you are some rotten historian. You sound more like a theology student.

You use Paul both for and against Jesus. That's some sloppy history mate.

Illogical.

If I was a theology student, would I use Paul against Jesus? How does that even make sense?
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07-08-2016, 09:33 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
The Book of Acts presents a timeline which, when compared with the "Before God I do not lie" accounts of (supposedly) Paul himself in Galatians, are totally irreconcilable. Paul never claimed to have "met Jesus". The two texts are not both possible as the truth. One of them is outright lying, or made up. Deal with it. Both texts are religious writing, and there is nothing to prove.

"Seen" used the way he did, is not "lexiconical".
It's a common idiomatic error of the (very) uneducated.

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07-08-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Quote:The so called "pastoral epistles" are often said to be written in the early second century.

Often said? is there any consensus?

Quote: "Paul's" "genuine" letters are sometimes said to have been written by Marcion, and I was reading an article last night that claimed all the Pauline epistles are second century (I can't find it now.) You need to read more widely.

Sometimes said by whom? And who says all the Pauline epistles are second century?

Are you getting your information from mythicists, deniers, and/or radicals? You see, you often rail against the consensus that I use, while you yourself constantly look for a consensus to dispute it. Problem is, the consensus you try to use are usually a combination of dead people who's scholarship is outdated by at least 200 years, or non-scholars, or some radical fringe scholar nobody takes seriously.

Quote:Just for the record, my opinion is that Paul's genuine epistles were originally written in the 50's and 60's, yet I'm not arrogant enough to state that as absolute fact.

It is never an act of arrogance to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Quote:PS. Just found it...
http://www.egodeath.com/thefabricatedpaul.htm

So ... your "esteemed" scholar is, as I predicted, "fringe scholar" Hermann Detering? Aside from being branded a radical and a raging lunatic, you do understand that this is the same guy who uses texts written in the 3rd century to come to the conclusion that Paul is really Simon Magus, right?

For fuck sakes, Mark. Is it not possible for you to escape this conspiracy theory bullshit?

Quote:
Quote:The Greek words used also can be translated as "made evident" (not necessarily "seen")

Thankyou

So you are thanking Mr. Ball for giving you a translation that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in the Greek? The syntax of the sentence makes that translation impossible. But this is what you get when you adhere to a mythicist instead of actual scholarship.

Here's about 20 translations. Please show me just one that translates it as "made evident."

New International Version
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?

New Living Translation
Am I not as free as anyone else? Am I not an apostle? Haven't I seen Jesus our Lord with my own eyes? Isn't it because of my work that you belong to the Lord?

English Standard Version
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?

New American Standard Bible
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

King James Bible
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

International Standard Version
I am free, am I not? I am an apostle, am I not? I have seen Jesus our Lord, haven't I? You are the result of my work in the Lord, aren't you?

NET Bible
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Am I not a son of freedom? Am I not an Apostle? Have I not seen Yeshua The Messiah Our Lord? Are you not my work in my Lord?

GOD'S WORD Translation
Don't you agree that I'm a free man? Don't you agree that I'm an apostle? Haven't I seen Jesus our Lord? Aren't you the result of my work for the Lord?

King James 2000 Bible
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not you my work in the Lord?

American King James Version
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not you my work in the Lord?

American Standard Version
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?

Douay-Rheims Bible
AM not I free? Am not I an apostle? Have not I seen Christ Jesus our Lord? Are not you my work in the Lord?

Darby Bible Translation
Am I not free? am I not an apostle? have I not seen Jesus our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

English Revised Version
Am I not free? am I not an apostle? have I not seen Jesus our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Webster's Bible Translation
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are ye not my work in the Lord?

Weymouth New Testament
Am I not free? Am I not an Apostle? Can it be denied that I have seen Jesus, our Lord? Are not you yourselves my work in the Lord?

World English Bible
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Haven't I seen Jesus Christ, our Lord? Aren't you my work in the Lord?

Young's Literal Translation
Am not I an apostle? am not I free? Jesus Christ our Lord have I not seen? my work are not ye in the Lord?

You will need to dig deep into your X-Files to find a translation that agrees with Mr. Ball, "Mr, Mulder."

Consider
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07-08-2016, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2016 11:07 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Unfortunately for you, GoneDown, one does not have to go very far.
The CHRISTIAN seminary professor Dr. B.B. Scott translates it that way. It's also the meaning Ehrman takes in his book, "How Jesus Became a God, the EXALTATION of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee", and there are others (Crossan) who agree also. They are not mythicists.

The concept that religious writing has to be DISproven, rather than supported with EXTERNAL evidence is bullshit.

I really wonder if GoneDown's "secular" claims are true. I mean he's actually arguing here that Paul really met a dead and resurrected Jesus.
Facepalm

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07-08-2016, 11:05 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Quote:
Quote:So therefore, prove that the text is nothing but a product of faith, and that it cannot be an actual event.

I'm sure Bucky will shoot you off at the kneecaps

He already knows he can't. The task I ask of him is impossible, since no such evidence to qualify his opinion actually exists.

Quote:but I'll throw my $.02 worth in.

I'm impressed that you at least know the value of your opinion.

Laugh out load

Quote:1. Paul never met a living Jesus. If he did he would've said so,

Yet, here we are with 1Cor 9:1 which says he did meet Jesus.

Quote:along with the details including a description of Jesus. He doesn't, so he didn't. End of story.

You know it's bad enough when other people move the goal posts, but when you do it you literally throw them onto the back of a pickup truck, drive to Martha's Vineyard, and hide them in Fox Mulder's basement!

Consider

Quote:2. Dead people do not come back to life. So he never did meet a dead Jesus except maybe, perhaps in his imagination, in the same way we might have a dream about our dead grandmother. End of story.

So "Paul" claiming Jesus appeared to him is either a lie, a description of a dream or an hallucination,

At least I see here some semblance of common sense. Things are looking up!

Quote: or an interpolation. End of story.

PS. My opinion is that it is an interpolation, and a rather pathetically obvious one at that. Second century Christians had great trouble proving that a flesh and blood Jesus ever existed. Making Paul meet Jesus was an amateurish insertion.

And now you just put your credibility right back into the sewers again. You have absolutely 0% evidence that suggests any kind of interpolation, but yet you go with that instead of the more plausible explanation that 1Cor 9:1 may actually indicate that Paul knew who Jesus was before Jesus was crucified?

Do we need Dana Scully in here to debunk you?

Laugh out load
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07-08-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(07-08-2016 11:05 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  Yet, here we are with 1Cor 9:1 which says he did meet Jesus.

Complete meaningless bullshit, none of which actually addresses the POINT.
So how about you reconcile your claim that you are not a believer, AND that Paul actually did meet a dead and resurrected Jesus. You haty ve in NO WAY dealt with the translation problem, or that you possess ANY ABILITY in Greek or ANY knowledge of Jewish Apocalyptic themes. In fact you have in this thread demonstrated not even ANY knowledge of current concepts in the historicity question. You said you refuse to even listen to DR. Carrier, and DR. Price.

We all "seen" that. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load

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