Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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16-08-2016, 10:30 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(15-08-2016 06:10 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(15-08-2016 03:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Re "christ"....

What about Serapis? http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/serapis.htm

Never entitled as Christ.

Quote:What about Paul's Christ?

Marcion's Christ?

Valentinus' Christ?

All based on Jesus of Nazareth.

Quote:Re "messiah"

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...o-messiahs

None documented as being entitled as Christ or Messiah.

Bullshit. If they were called a "messiah", they were a "christ" ... the Greek translation of the damn word. Josephus claimed Vespasian was the messiah.
Wrong again, Mister. Rolleyes

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16-08-2016, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2016 10:42 AM by GoingUp.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(16-08-2016 10:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-08-2016 06:10 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Never entitled as Christ.


All based on Jesus of Nazareth.


None documented as being entitled as Christ or Messiah.

Bullshit. If they were called a "messiah", they were a "christ" ... the Greek translation of the damn word. Josephus claimed Vespasian was the messiah.
Wrong again, Mister. Rolleyes

And the big word is "IF."

Again, show me a single ancient text that ascribes the exact title of Messiah to anyone in the 1st century other than Jesus.

It's a very simple request.

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16-08-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...l#overview
There were tons of them.

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16-08-2016, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2016 11:36 AM by GoingUp.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(16-08-2016 10:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...l#overview
There were tons of them.

Ancient claimants

1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
6. Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE)
7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
9. Theudas (45 CE)
10. The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
12. Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE)
13. John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
14. Vespasian (67 CE)
15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
16. Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE)


There are 16 supposed 1st century claimants listed above, and I have been generous enough to include 3 just previous to the 1st century. How many of those can you verify with ancient documented evidence to have been entitled as Christ or Messiah in which we can find that information actually written down?

Can you, for example, produce a document that explicitly states "Judas Christ, " or "Simon the Messiah," or "John the Baptist Christ?"

I would like to see a single document where the title of Messiah/Christ is explicitly attached to their name, please.

NOTE: My position is that there likely were messianic claimants running around Judea during the 1st century, but NOBODY can state it as a positive claim for the simple reason that the hard evidence I am asking for above currently does not exist.

So be careful of these "claims" you see online regarding messianic claimants other than Jesus, because historically these positive claims are not verified, and that only a few of them are "safely assumed."
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16-08-2016, 02:34 PM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2016 01:48 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(15-08-2016 06:10 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(15-08-2016 03:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Re "christ"....

What about Serapis? http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/serapis.htm

Never entitled as Christ.

Quote:What about Paul's Christ?

Marcion's Christ?

Valentinus' Christ?

All based on Jesus of Nazareth.

Quote:Re "messiah"

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...o-messiahs

None documented as being entitled as Christ or Messiah.

"christ" was another name for Serapis...

http://www.oneworldofnations.com/2015/03...-that.html
http://robertmascharan.blogspot.com.au/2...f-g-d.html
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16-08-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(16-08-2016 02:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-08-2016 06:10 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  Never entitled as Christ.


All based on Jesus of Nazareth.


None documented as being entitled as Christ or Messiah.

"christ" was another name for Serapis...

http://www.oneworldofnations.com/2015/03...-that.html

No.

Drinking Beverage
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17-08-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(16-08-2016 03:25 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(16-08-2016 02:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "christ" was another name for Serapis...

http://www.oneworldofnations.com/2015/03...-that.html

No.

Drinking Beverage

Not good enough
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17-08-2016, 02:39 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
What you all fail to address is what religion this stems from.

If the Jesus character is born into a religion which recognizes a messiah figure, and is purported to come out of Egypt, whether or not it did, then one has to look to Egypt. Then, one has to look at the symbolism of the cross. All of the symbolism of this religion is Egyptian.

What I believe was happening is that the Egyptian religion was pagan phallic worship. The cross is derived from the Egyptian Ankh which is the Coptic Christian cross and a symbol of life in Egypt. All the Egyptian gods carried one. The Egyptians used religion to further their sexual lives and they viewed the orgasm as the highest and most desirable state of mind. They believed the gods procreated and lived in this state of mind so they developed a religion which centered around sex. Priestesses had to have sex with 1000 men before becoming a priestess. Cleopatra gave blowjobs to visiting Roman dignitaries, and had sex with Julius Caesar. All of this was a "good thing" in that religion. However, the masses didn't get equal time so the followers of this religion were probably not very popular.

Anyway, if we think we have problems with child abuse by Priests now, these sorts of things, initiation rites, phallus worship, religious prostitution, were what the pre-Jesus religion was all about.

If the Romans were trying to get rid of this by introducing Serapis, and then Jesus, as spokespersons for a new, Hellenistic religion with the Golden Rule as its central principle, one can see how the people would have welcomed a figure who had converted to this new Hellenistic philosophy and decided to confront the elders of the existing church and how and why he wasn't accepted by them. It's probably not to do with politics as such, but a dislike among people of a ruling elite who were engaging in sexual practices as part of the religion which they used to justify themselves.

For me it's entirely Hellenism v. Paganism and there is plenty of support for this view of both "Judaism" or the messianic, cellestial phallic religion which predated Jesus in Egypt, and Hellenistic "judaism" which was being developed in Alexandria.

This is where Izates comes in because his mother converted to Hellenistic Judaism and organized a famine relief in Judea. Izates, like Jesus, was sent away during his youth and was also converted to Hellenistic Judaism while he was in Charanx Spasinu.

"During his youth Izates was sent by his father to the court of King Abinergaos I of Characene in Charax Spasinu. While in Charax Izates became acquainted with a Jewish merchant named Ananias, who familiarized him with the tenets of the Jewish religion, in which he became deeply interested. Izates married King Abinergaos' daughter Symacho who had been converted to Judaism through the efforts of Ananias. His mother had been previously won over to Judaism without his knowledge. On returning home and ascending the throne on the death of his father (c. 31 CE), Izates discovered the conversion of his mother; and he himself intended to adopt Judaism, and even to submit to circumcision. He was, however, dissuaded from this step both by his teacher Ananias and by his mother, but was ultimately persuaded thereto by another Jew, Eleazar" Wiki

The names in this come down to us in legend as Helen and Paris. The son, in legend, becomes the patron saint, George as a result of supression of the followers of these people after their defeat by the Romans in the war against the Jews. But, these weren't "Jews" as we know them. They were monotheists of the House of David or Dau, which is the Tao or phallus, ie., the Anhk. In Turkey the Nazar, or eye of Horus, is still venerated universally by all Turks and they all engage in ritual circumcision of their male children in a ceremony which mimics the cirucumcision of Izates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7WaVPfSdY

The Near East, despite being Muslim, is an area full of suppressed and syncretic religions which have Christian elements or aspects which go back to something resembling, but not quite, what we now recognize as Christianity.

None of the gospels were written before this Izates was dead. His history is recounted in Jewish history and Armenian history books but we have been peddled the Romanized version in which Izates pro-Roman attitude is featured because he was pro-Roman. That is why the NT is written as it is and the crucifixion is blamed on the Jews. Izates was Hellenistic and opposed what was the descendant of a fertility religion, not Judaism as we know it.
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17-08-2016, 05:45 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
What the actual fuck?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-08-2016, 06:32 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(17-08-2016 02:39 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  What you all fail to address is what religion this stems from.

If the Jesus character is born into a religion which recognizes a messiah figure, and is purported to come out of Egypt, whether or not it did, then one has to look to Egypt. Then, one has to look at the symbolism of the cross. All of the symbolism of this religion is Egyptian.

What I believe was happening is that the Egyptian religion was pagan phallic worship. The cross is derived from the Egyptian Ankh which is the Coptic Christian cross and a symbol of life in Egypt. All the Egyptian gods carried one. The Egyptians used religion to further their sexual lives and they viewed the orgasm as the highest and most desirable state of mind. They believed the gods procreated and lived in this state of mind so they developed a religion which centered around sex. Priestesses had to have sex with 1000 men before becoming a priestess. Cleopatra gave blowjobs to visiting Roman dignitaries, and had sex with Julius Caesar. All of this was a "good thing" in that religion. However, the masses didn't get equal time so the followers of this religion were probably not very popular.

Anyway, if we think we have problems with child abuse by Priests now, these sorts of things, initiation rites, phallus worship, religious prostitution, were what the pre-Jesus religion was all about.

If the Romans were trying to get rid of this by introducing Serapis, and then Jesus, as spokespersons for a new, Hellenistic religion with the Golden Rule as its central principle, one can see how the people would have welcomed a figure who had converted to this new Hellenistic philosophy and decided to confront the elders of the existing church and how and why he wasn't accepted by them. It's probably not to do with politics as such, but a dislike among people of a ruling elite who were engaging in sexual practices as part of the religion which they used to justify themselves.

For me it's entirely Hellenism v. Paganism and there is plenty of support for this view of both "Judaism" or the messianic, cellestial phallic religion which predated Jesus in Egypt, and Hellenistic "judaism" which was being developed in Alexandria.

This is where Izates comes in because his mother converted to Hellenistic Judaism and organized a famine relief in Judea. Izates, like Jesus, was sent away during his youth and was also converted to Hellenistic Judaism while he was in Charanx Spasinu.

"During his youth Izates was sent by his father to the court of King Abinergaos I of Characene in Charax Spasinu. While in Charax Izates became acquainted with a Jewish merchant named Ananias, who familiarized him with the tenets of the Jewish religion, in which he became deeply interested. Izates married King Abinergaos' daughter Symacho who had been converted to Judaism through the efforts of Ananias. His mother had been previously won over to Judaism without his knowledge. On returning home and ascending the throne on the death of his father (c. 31 CE), Izates discovered the conversion of his mother; and he himself intended to adopt Judaism, and even to submit to circumcision. He was, however, dissuaded from this step both by his teacher Ananias and by his mother, but was ultimately persuaded thereto by another Jew, Eleazar" Wiki

The names in this come down to us in legend as Helen and Paris. The son, in legend, becomes the patron saint, George as a result of supression of the followers of these people after their defeat by the Romans in the war against the Jews. But, these weren't "Jews" as we know them. They were monotheists of the House of David or Dau, which is the Tao or phallus, ie., the Anhk. In Turkey the Nazar, or eye of Horus, is still venerated universally by all Turks and they all engage in ritual circumcision of their male children in a ceremony which mimics the cirucumcision of Izates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7WaVPfSdY

The Near East, despite being Muslim, is an area full of suppressed and syncretic religions which have Christian elements or aspects which go back to something resembling, but not quite, what we now recognize as Christianity.

None of the gospels were written before this Izates was dead. His history is recounted in Jewish history and Armenian history books but we have been peddled the Romanized version in which Izates pro-Roman attitude is featured because he was pro-Roman. That is why the NT is written as it is and the crucifixion is blamed on the Jews. Izates was Hellenistic and opposed what was the descendant of a fertility religion, not Judaism as we know it.
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